Ep. 84: Psychedelics and Wellness with Dr. Roger McIntyre & Dr. Ishrat Husain

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They’re portrayed as a mechanism to achieve self-knowledge in the Amazon Prime show, Nine Perfect Strangers. They were the subject of promising clinical trials in the New England Journal of Medicine and Nature Medicine. They fascinate Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss, and their promise was even the subject of a book by Michael Pollan (How to Change Your Mind). So is the buzz about psychedelics justified? What’s the deal with microdosing? And exactly which mental illnesses might benefit from psychedelic therapies? Psychopharmacologist Dr. Roger McIntyre of the University Health Network and Dr. Ishrat Husain, a psychiatrist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, discuss the latest scientific developments for psilocybin, MDMA, ketamine and more.

INTERVIEW SUBJECT BIOS

Dr. Roger McIntyre, MD, is a psychiatrist, psychopharmacologist and the head of the Disorders Psychopharmacology Unit at UHN. He’s also a professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at the University of Toronto. He is the CEO of Braxia Scientific and the president of the CRTCE (Canadian Rapid Treatment Centre of Excellence), the first-ever Canadian facility to specialize in intravenous psychedelic treatments for such conditions as depression and bipolar disorder. 

Dr. Ishrat Husain, MD (res), is a clinician scientist and staff psychiatrist in the general and health systems psychiatry division at the Centre for Addiction & Mental Health (CAMH), and an assistant professor in the department of psychiatry at the University of Toronto. He is on the scientific advisory board at Mindset Pharma Inc., a company focused on developing psychedelic treatment of neurological disorders, and his current research explores how psychedelics can treat mood disorders and mitigate symptoms.

LINKS 

Learn more about Dr. Roger McIntyre’s company, Braxia Scientific, his Canadian Rapid Treatment Center of Excellence and the rest of his publications here. Here’s Dr. McIntyre’s webpage at U of T. 

Check out Mindset Pharma Inc, where Dr. Ishrat Husain is scientific advisor. See Dr. Husain’s scientific publications here. Here’s Dr. Husain’s webpage at CAMH.

The New England Journal of Medicine study on psilocybin.

The Nature Medicine study on MDMA and PTSD.

Read up on these psychedelics and wellness trials happening now:

Learn about earlier psychedelics studies at the trailblazing John Hopkins Centre for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research, where research on psilocybin began more than 20 years ago. 

Read some books that spurred today’s hype around psychedelics:


INSIGHTS 

1. We use the term “psychedelics” a lot in this episode. But what does that word mean, and which drugs fall into that category? Dr. Husain explains that the term is Greek in origin and means “mind manifesting.” He calls them “very potent substances” that can “cause very profound hallucinatory experiences, which can be very powerful, but at the same time, for some people, can be quite distressing.” Dr. Roger McIntyre considers in the psychedelic category such drugs as lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocybin (the active ingredient in so-called “magic mushrooms”), as well as dimethyltryptamine, ayahuasca, mescaline, MDMA (known as “ecstacy” or “molly”), and ketamine. [07:20]

2. Canada legalized marijuana for both recreational and medical use in October 2018, and now anyone of legal age can access many different types of marijuana, as long as it’s less than or equal to 30 grams of dried cannabis. Dr. Ishrat Husain says, “With cannabis, a lot of the research wasn't completed before it was extended to medicinal use. And I hope the same thing doesn't happen with psychedelics, I think that it would be really important for us to do the robust research before it's translated into medicinal use.” The powerful nature of these drugs means that their administration needs to come with medical supervision from experts trained in psychedelic treatments. [08:21]

3. Both Dr. Husain and Dr. McIntyre discourage recreational use of psychedelics. They also discourage microdosing of LSD and other psychedelics for self-administered therapeutic purposes. “I do cringe… when I hear about people taking micro and macro dosing for whatever medical problem,” says Dr. McIntyre, “We just don't have the evidence that that works and it’s safe.” Similarly, Dr. Husain says, “we don't know what the risks are… I mean, these aren't risk free drugs...they do come with adverse effects that can cause, for instance, anxiety, it can cause dissociation, which means sort of like a break from reality, as well.” Specifically about microdosing, Dr. Husain says, “there is no study that confirms the mental health benefits of microdosing psychedelics at this point. In fact, studies that have looked at recreational users have shown that microdosing psychedelics are no better than taking a placebo.” [10:21]

4. To minimize the risk that psychedelics are legalized before the medical and scientific implications are known, as well as minimize the risk of a backlash similar to what psychedelics experienced in the ‘70s, Dr. McIntyre believes it’ll be necessary for experts from many different fields to work together. “If you engage the medical establishment, you engage the political establishment, the legal establishment, the regulatory environment, and have all players at the table saying, can we find a line of sight here? How can we do this safely and appropriately? We've got to do this with [a] multilateral partnership.” [12:43]

5. The interest that society and the media have taken in psychedelics recently is exciting for those studying them, says Dr. Roger McIntyre. “We don't get enough hype in psychiatry,” he says. “So I welcome the hype, I welcome the hope. We need hope for people who are affected by PTSD and depression and so on…” The attention, Dr. McIntyre says, has also helped attract funding for research studies. Still, Dr. Husain warns that we shouldn’t let the hype lead the way. “There's so much that we don't know yet,” Dr. Husain says. “We need to do the work before we can say that they're even useful as a treatment option,” he says. [13:35]

6. Scientists are still learning what, exactly, psychedelics do to our brains. According to Dr. Husain, we know that psilocybin, the active compound in magic mushrooms, does at least two different things. It stimulates the receptors that create serotonin, a brain chemical responsible for improved mood, Dr. Husain explains. “Another thing that it's shown to do is, reset the brain. There's a network in the brain called the default mode network, and when we're in our own internal world, thinking about things or wondering how other people view us, that network in the brain is very, very active. And it's thought that psilocybin comes in and disrupts that network, so that we start fresh.” [16:40]

7. Where is the future of psychedelics going? Both our experts think there’s much more study, and many more therapeutic uses, ahead. “We are entering the first inning of a baseball game,” says Dr. Roger McIntyre. “my dream in the ninth inning of this baseball game, is that we have a cure for these horrible illnesses and we can reduce suicide… we can get people better, get people better fast, and not just sweep symptoms under the rug, but can actually cure the illness.” Dr. Ishrat Husain is also hopeful that the research will clarify exactly how psychedelics work, so that we can use them as efficiently and safely as possible. “It would be fantastic if we're able to show that, yes, these medications are effective, and we understand why they're effective.” [18:39]

EP. 84: PSYCHEDELICS AND WELLNESS WITH DR. ROGER MCINTYRE & DR. ISHRAT HUSAIN

FINAL WEB TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Shulgan 0:09

Welcome to Episode 84 of Eat Move Think. I'm executive producer Christopher Shulgan, and today we're going to be talking about psychedelics and wellness. The team at Eat Move Think arranged interviews with some of the leading scientists studying psychedelic therapies. This episode kicks off the first of a two part series. Today we're talking about history and science and in an upcoming show we will feature an interview with Payton Nyquvest, the CEO of the Vancouver company, Numinus Wellness, the first to be authorized by Health Canada to harvest psilocybin for clinical trials. Walking us through all of this today is Eat Move Think associate producer, Jasmine Rach. Jasmine, why are we talking about psychedelics and wellness in the first place?

Jasmine Rach 0:49

Chris, the COVID-19 pandemic has definitely drawn a lot more focus than ever before onto mental health issues. And it's also a popular topic of conversation in a lot of pop culture right now, you may have seen that new Amazon Prime series called Nine Perfect Strangers. And that show delves into mushrooms and how they can change your mindset and affect your wellbeing.

Christopher Shulgan 1:10

Nicole Kidman is great in that.

Jasmine Rach 1:12

It's also been given a lot of hype with a couple of books that have come out recently there's that Michael Pollan book, How To Change Your Mind. And there's also that Ayelet Waldman book called A Really Good Day, which is all about a mom's experience with microdosing herself over the course of a month.

Christopher Shulgan 1:27

Yeah, Michael Pollan is everywhere these days.

Jasmine Rach 1:29

Absolutely. He was also in that new Netflix documentary, Fantastic Fungi, which is also all about mushrooms and psilocybin.

Christopher Shulgan 1:35

So what's happening on the scientific front?

Jasmine Rach 1:37

Well, I got to chat with Dr. Roger McIntyre. And this guy is all sorts of stuff. He's a psychiatrist, he's a psychopharmacologist, he's the head of the Disorders Pharmacology Unit at the University Health Network. He's a professor at University of Toronto. He's also the CEO of Braxia Scientific, which is one of the leading companies in psychedelic research. And he also happens to run the first-ever Canadian facility to specialize in intravenous psychedelic treatments for conditions like depression, bipolar disorder, all sorts of things. So let's have Roger tell us all about the science.

Roger McIntyre 2:13

Well, you know, it's interesting, because this is not the first time we've talked about this, this is kind of deja vu all over again, in some respects, and psychedelics have a long history going back decades. In fact, there's a couple of reasons that really jumped out right now. First is that I think there's much greater attention being paid to not only how common mental illness, trauma, stress, other related aspects that affect humanity are around the world. I think, to some extent, it's also in fact a function of the fact that we have had many treatments for a variety of mental illnesses for many decades. And some have done very well on these medications. But many people have not. Canadians and Americans have extraordinary rates of mental illness. Most studies say at least one in five, some say even one in four experience mental illness. For most people, they just don't do as well as we want, they want. We need new treatments. And I think thirdly, I think what you're seeing is, I think you're seeing a legal environment that's changing in some jurisdictions around North America, for example, that are creating an opportunity. Wherein drugs that historically had been so called schedule-1 drugs are drugs that are find themselves now helping people with depression. So like many things in life, you know, there's often many authors to things and this will be no exception to that.

Christopher Shulgan 3:27

In addition to all of that, there was kind of a double whammy of studies this year on psychedelics and wellness, particularly mental wellness. And so we also have another doctor, Dr. Ishrat Husain, and he'll be talking all about that. So who is Dr. Ishrat Husain?

Jasmine Rach 3:41

Dr. Husain is also a lot of things. He's a scientist, he's an associate professor at University of Toronto, and he's a psychiatrist at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health here in Toronto. His current research is all about how psychedelics can treat mood disorders.

Ishrat Husain 3:56

So earlier this year, there was a lot of excitement around the potential use of these compounds for treatment of various mental health conditions. There was a study published in the world's most prestigious medical journal, the New England Journal of Medicine, which compared the psychedelic psilocybin, which is a chemical component of magic mushroomsm, with standard antidepressant treatments for major depression, and actually found that the psilocybin was as effective as what we use as a first line treatment for people with depression. And that was really exciting because it showed that there may be an alternative to what we currently have. And although it didn't show that the psilocybin was superior to what we have, it was a small study so it clearly showed that there was a potential signal there and something that should be investigated further. And not only that, soon after that there was also a study looking at the use of MDMA,

Jasmine Rach 4:57

MDMA being ecstasy or Molly,

Ishrat Husain 4:59

for the treatment of post traumatic stress disorder, which is a common and very disabling condition as well, and very difficult to treat. And that study published in another prestigious journal, Nature Medicine, showed that MDMA could be a potential treatment for people with PTSD and other conditions as well. So this created, again, a lot of excitement. And in terms of where we are in the field at the moment, is that we want to use these preliminary findings to conduct more rigorous research, design larger clinical trials, because really to translate it for use in the public and in patients, we need evidence from, from larger groups to confirm their potential therapeutic effects. So that's where we're at, and hoping to extend the work to, to other mental health conditions as well, not just depression and trauma.

Christopher Shulgan 5:51

It sounds like the stigma, which I think there was a backlash probably after the 50s and 60s heyday of this research, and then the 70s, there's a backlash against hippies, and then 80s, there's the War on Drugs.

Jasmine Rach 6:04

Absolutely. And I think there's still different evolving stigma around it right now. And so I actually asked both of the doctors that I spoke to about that.

Ishrat Husain 6:12

I think that a lot of the stigma, particularly compared to the 70s, when they were made schedule-1 narcotics, I think that has, to some degree, attenuated. But there are still groups of people, both within medicine and outside of medicine that are skeptical about it. And that's, that's fair enough. You know, that's why we do science, because, you know, we want to sort of get to the bottom of a particular question, and it's good to have questions.

Christopher Shulgan 6:39

Jasmine, what drugs are we talking about here? What are we talking about when we talk about psychedelics?

Jasmine Rach 6:44

The definition isn't so simple. So I'll let the experts handle it.

Ishrat Husain 6:48

So psychedelic is a, the term comes from, it's Greek in origin, and it means "mind manifesting". So really, these are very potent substances at certain doses, and they can cause very profound experiences, hallucinatory experiences, which can be very powerful, but at the same time, for some people can be quite distressing, which is why we are studying them so far in the context of psychotherapy, and psychological support to help people through any distress they may experience.

Roger McIntyre 7:20

Parenthetically, what are psychedelics? I mean, psychedelics mean certain things to many people. A lot of people like to think psychedelics means LSD, end of conversation, but LSD and psilocybin you know, magic mushrooms are one or two of a sort of classic psychedelic, which would also include things like dimethyltryptamine, ayahuasca, there's, there's obviously a few others, masculine is one, and then we also think about drugs like ecstasy, or Molly or MDMA, or even ketamine.

Christopher Shulgan 7:45

One thing I don't hear these researchers talking about is cannabis. And I get that cannabis is not a psychedelic, but surely the legalization of cannabis plays into all of that.

Jasmine Rach 7:56

You know, you would think that psychedelics could take a similar path to legalization as cannabis did. But neither of the doctors that I spoke to think that should happen, they actually both think that the path needs to be a lot more rooted in science, when it comes to psychedelics.

Ishrat Husain 8:10

I think it's an it's a different beast, I hope it doesn't go down the route for, I can only speak to my expertise, which is related to research for mental health conditions. And I think unfortunately, with, with cannabis, a lot of the research wasn't completed before it was extended to medicinal use. And I hope the same thing doesn't happen with psychedelics, I think that it would be really important for us to do the robust research before it's trans, translated into medicinal use.

Roger McIntyre 8:42

So I'm often asked by people, can I smoke cannabis for my depression, or my bipolar, my schizophrenia? And I also tell people, you shouldn't do that.

Jasmine Rach 8:50

Roger McIntyre, again,

Roger McIntyre 8:51

Not because of any kind of morality reason, a Puritan reason, we just don't have the evidence, we don't have the evidence that it's safe or effective to do that for those conditions. Now for other medical conditions, and it has some interesting data, and it's frankly, it's further ahead. So I think what for me, I learned is, is that we need to decide at the front door, is this going to be for recreational, retail purpose, or this can be for medical purpose. Could be for both, but I really don't see for both, I think to be one or the other.

Christopher Shulgan 9:18

So you have this dichotomy between recreational and retail, which is cannabis today. And then you have medicinal, which do they think it should be?

Jasmine Rach 9:28

They both lean strongly in one direction, Chris, but I'll let them explain that.

Ishrat Husain 9:32

I'm a psychiatrist, first and foremost, and I work in emergency psychiatry, I see the consequences of recreational substance use on people's mental health and physical health. And I don't promote recreational use of substances.

Jasmine Rach 9:48

A lot of the talk around psychedelics and healthcare began because the people studying these drugs, tried these drugs. Have you ever tried any of the drugs that you're studying?

Ishrat Husain 10:00

No, and I don't think that's necessary. I know there are a group of colleagues and people that I work with who who do promote experiential training, as it's called, but I don't think it's, it's necessary. I study lots of different substances and drugs, I don't take them on. So I don't think it's necessary.

Jasmine Rach 10:20

Right.

Roger McIntyre 10:21

I do not see any role whatsoever for psychedelics as a recreational drug, full stop. I see psychedelics, only under medical supervision at this point in time.

Jasmine Rach 10:31

Again, Roger McIntyre.

Roger McIntyre 10:33

My interest in psychedelics came from a very deep rooted sense of respect for people who have mental illness. I've watched tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands of people with depression come in my office and suffering. And at that point, you get to a point when you say, you know, what can we do differently, we can't continue like this, we need to give people hopeful directions. And so for me, the inspiration, the impetus for this has been given to me by people who live with these conditions and their families. And we need to, in fact, do things differently. People often ask me, did you ever use psilocybin or shrooms? No, I've never used these drugs. And by the way, you don't need to use these drugs to be strongly and passionate about your patients and their suffering. Okay? You know, I'm a psychiatrist. I'm a psychopharmacologist. And I've been in drug discovery and development for a large part of my career. And I think that, like anything, if it's a medicine that can help, every medicine can hurt. And I think what we took away from the 60s, among other things, was that there was in fact, an effort to increase the utilization of these so-called psychedelics, very often, most often outside of medical supervision. And frankly, that really I think, did no service for the safety of these medications. And then you saw what you often will see, you'll see a correction with respect to the scheduling and the declaration of illegality of these medications, and so on, and so on. So I think we must take lessons as history approach. And as we now go back to this, look at psychedelics, we absolutely have to make sure this is done with the absolute utmost of caution, with safety being the guiding principle, and that these drugs be looked at, be evaluated by people who are credential to do this kind of work, the appropriate people are taking these types of treatments under appropriate settings. And I think that has to be the overarching lesson from a couple of decades ago, related and I'll be finished there, is that I think we need to develop these medications with multi stakeholders involved. You leave yourself open to a variety of criticisms, and a variety of deja vu all over again, if a small subculture of people, if you will, are developing these products. If you engage the medical establishment, you engage the political establishment, the legal establishment, the regulatory environment, and have all players at the table saying, "can we find a line of sight here? Yes or no? We can't, how can we do this safely and appropriately?" So two lessons, safety, safety, safety, and second, we've got to do this with multilateral partnership.

Christopher Shulgan 13:15

There's a lot of buzz around psychedelics, and some of it is not this medicinal path. Some of it is recreational or it's even self administered medicinal. What do they think of the buzz around psychedelics?

Jasmine Rach 13:27

They both think we need to approach this with caution.

Roger McIntyre 13:30

Do I welcome hype in the area of potential therapeutics in psychiatry? Absolutely, I do. We don't get enough hype in psychiatry, we don't have a surplus of hype. So I welcome the hype. I welcome the hope. And we need hope for people who are affected by PTSD and depression and so on. Absolutely, I do. And frankly, we've seen significant amount of funding coming to this area from different organizations, public and private, that I've been bringing funding for good research and some very good people doing research here. So it's been fantastic. At the same time, I always believe that you've got to have thoughtful leadership overseeing this, you don't want to spoil the broth. And we need to make sure that we don't have the enthusiasm and the excitement and some of the Hollywood glitz, frankly, around this, overshadow or somehow take over our good judgment. And our good measured approach to doing this.

Jasmine Rach 14:22

Ishrat also talks about a lot of the mistakes that were made during the research around these psychedelics in the 50s and the 60s Today, things are pretty different because they're guided with the help of psychologists.

Ishrat Husain 14:34

So I think the main common thread across the studies that have been published so far has been that these compounds need to be given in the context of psychological support in psychotherapy. There's always a therapist who's trained in psychedelic assisted therapy in the room with them. The treatments all are always delivered with a music playlist as well to sort of, you know, really harness the whole psychedelic experience. And the research has shown that that they can have profound, at least short to medium term benefits without serious adverse effects. Now, I must say that this is in small groups of people, and that doesn't mean that we're going to confirm that this happens if we do a large a larger trial. But I would say it's been promising so far.

Christopher Shulgan 15:20

Lots of what you're hearing about today's microdosing. What do the scientists think of that?

Jasmine Rach 15:26

They're both apprehensive about it.

Ishrat Husain 15:27

There is no study that confirms the mental health benefits of microdosing psychedelics at this point. In fact, studies that have looked at recreational users have shown that microdosing psychedelics are no better than taking a placebo. So at this point, I don't advocate or promote the use of microdosing. I know subjectively, a lot of people have told me that they find benefit from it. You know, even from some of my patients, anecdotally, they've said that it has benefits for them. At the same time, we don't know what the risks are, I mean, these aren't risk-free drugs either. They do come with adverse effects that can cause for instance, anxiety, they can cause dissociation, which means sort of like a break from reality as well. And there are people who are vulnerable to certain mental health conditions like psychosis, where it's obviously not very safe for them to be taking these drugs. So I think that we need to do a trial of microdosing as well, we don't have a very rigorous clinical trial of the benefits or potential benefits of microdosing psychedelics. So my advice is always to not partake in something that's not shown to have scientific evidence of benefit.

Roger McIntyre 16:40

I do cringe to some extent, my hear about people taking micro or macrodosing for whatever medical problem, for the same reason. We just don't have the evidence that that works and that it's safe. But that's something that people are looking at, and I think it's quite possible in the not too distant future, that microdosing may be a viable treatment for a select type of mental disorder. But again, we need the data before we get there. So I think, to be clear on this, I really think that the excitement is fabulous. I think we need to harness that excitement with thoughtful leadership in over, overseeing this. And I really think in fact, what we need to do is we need to make sure we're safe. We need to make sure we're doing this in a way that respects the seriousness of these disorders. And I think if that's the guiding principles, that's good, but currently, I do not recommend people take these medications at home, alone or for whatever other purpose.

Christopher Shulgan 17:35

We've talked mostly about psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, anything else they're excited about?

Jasmine Rach 17:41

Oh, ketamine, definitely.

Roger McIntyre 17:43

Well, I think the most exciting development for me again, using a very broad definition of psychedelics, is in the ketamine area quite frankly. Ketamine has already been FDA approved for depression, also FDA approved for people who have depression and suicidal thinking or behavior, that is clearly an important milestone for people affected by debilitating and agonizing disorders. So that's extremely exciting. This was, this was a party drug, in fact it still is a party drug. This is a drug that has a romantic history, but developed safely and appropriately, it found itself into an area that can help many, many people. That's clearly exciting.

Christopher Shulgan 18:17

Okay, my question now is, what is it exactly doing in the brain? Like, what are the buttons that they're pressing in people's gray matter that is having these effects?

Ishrat Husain 18:28

So the short answer is that we don't entirely know. However, there has been some work looking at what's happening in the brain when a healthy person takes psilocybin. And it's shown that it first of all, it has very potent effects on receptors in the brain that are responsible for the actions of a chemical called serotonin. And serotonin is often called the happy chemical, because that's what's responsible for improved mood. And oftentimes in depression, serotonin is depleted. So by having a very potent action at that serotonin receptor or receptors, it's thought that psilocybin might be having an antidepressant effect. Another thing that it's shown to do is kind of reset the brain in a way. There's a network in the brain called the default mode network, and when we're kind of in our own internal world kind of thinking about things or wondering how other people view us, that network in the brain is very, very active. And it's thought that psilocybin comes in and disrupts that network, so that we kind of start afresh. So these are some of the potential ways that it may be causing effects, but it hasn't been confirmed in a large group of people. So again, this is work that we're trying to do here at CAMH developing studies that allow us to understand the mechanism of action of these drugs.

Christopher Shulgan 19:52

And what about MDMA and PTSD, what's happening there?

Jasmine Rach 19:55

Here's what Ishrat has to say.

Ishrat Husain 19:56

So again, I think it's, it's actions on receptors in the brain that are responsible for the actions and metabolism of certain neurochemicals, that includes serotonin, and another one called norepinephrine. So that's how it's thought that MDMA also exerts its actions. But again, very little work showing what's going on in the brain when people are under the influence of these drugs.

Jasmine Rach 20:20

Now, let's talk about the longterm outlook.

Ishrat Husain 20:23

So my hope is that the trials will confirm that these are beneficial treatments, because to be honest, we need them. A lot of people don't respond or can't tolerate some of the side effects of what we have currently available. And I think it would be fantastic if we're able to show that yes, these medications are effective. And we understand why they're effective. Because I think that's also important. That allows us to understand who to be able to give the medication to, or the treatment to, before we kind of just say it's useful for everybody.

Christopher Shulgan 20:57

And Roger, how does he see things?

Jasmine Rach 21:00

He's pretty optimistic.

Roger McIntyre 21:01

My hope is, is that we can say 10 years from now, that we have got a cure for mental illness. And frankly, we are entering the first inning of a baseball game. And so I think that my vision, my dream in the ninth inning of this baseball game, is that we actually have, we have a cure for these horrible illnesses. And we can reduce suicide, Canada 4,000 suicides a year, that's unacceptable. In the United States, 45,000 people die a year from suicide, that's unacceptable. So why can't we reduce that? Well, we can. And so my view and my hope is, is that we are going to, whether it's through psychedelics, it could be through other really interesting, innovative molecules that our group and other groups are looking at around the world, can get people better, get people better fast, and not just sweep symptoms under the rug, but can actually cure the illness. And that is the hope. And I think that's very much a possibility, given what we're learning now, about how the brain functions, how the brain doesn't function, and how we can correct malfunctioning brains with some of these new treatments. That's how I see it. I hope that the psychedelics take us all the way there or part of the way there, but they certainly are helping a lot of people.

Christopher Shulgan 22:12

It seems like a lot of these studies are coming out of Canada. From a global perspective, how do we rank in terms of where the rest of the world is with this stuff?

Jasmine Rach 22:22

I'd say we're pretty close to the top, Chris.

Roger McIntyre 22:24

Look, I'm a proud Canadian. And so I'm going to probably be a little biased. But I think the objective evidence, in fact does support that. Look, there's outstanding research taking place at Hopkins in Baltimore, also in London in the UK. Frankly, part of this is a regulatory environment and permission to do this kind of research, and the obviously the ecosystem to do this kind of research. But for a variety of reasons, I think that Canadians, we saw this of course with cannabis, which is an entirely different conversation but we you saw the approach to cannabis in Canada, that was a bit more advanced, if you will, than other countries. And so the Government of Canada has certainly made it clear that they're willing to entertain submissions for this type of research. I think Canadians recognize, not that other people don't, but I think Canadians highly recognize mental illness, they recognize the importance of treatments. And I think, for a variety of cultural and societal and political reasons, I think Canadians have been much more, I guess you could say accommodating to this approach.

Christopher Shulgan 23:23

We've learned a lot today. We've learned that the buzz is legit, that there is scientific potential behind this, that researchers are conducting clinical trials that see psychedelics as potential therapies for forms of mental illness that have been plaguing us for decades. But what we don't have is a personal story of someone who has experienced psychedelics for themselves, and then the other thing that we don't really have is a vision of the future. where's this going? Where's this going?

Jasmine Rach 23:59

Well Chris, I happen to have an awesome guest for you next week, who's gonna tell you all about that. His name is Payton Nyquvest, and he's the CEO of Numinus Wellness, which was the first company that was legally allowed to harvest psilocybin to treat mental illness. He's also someone who happened to use psychedelics himself, he says that they saved his life. So you'll hear all about that next week.

Christopher Shulgan 24:20

I can't wait. Thanks, Jasmine for producing this episode.

Jasmine Rach 24:23

No problem, Chris.

Christopher Shulgan 24:24

That was Dr. Ishrat Husain of the Center for Addiction and Mental Health and Dr. Roger McIntyre of the University Health Network talking about psychedelics and wellness in the first of our two part series. We'll post links insights and a full episode transcript at Eat Move Think podcast.com.

Jasmine Rach 24:40

Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. I'm Associate Producer Jasmine Rach. Social media and strategy support is from Chantel Guertin and Andrew Imecs. Our executive producer is Christopher Shulgan.

Christopher Shulgan 24:54

Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favorite podcast platforms. Follow our host Shaun Francis on Twitter and Instagram @ShaunCFrancis—That's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with another episode examining the latest in health and wellness.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


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Ep. 85: Curing Mental Illness with Psychedelics feat. Payton Nyquvest of Numinus Wellness

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Ep. 83: How to Build a High-Performance Team with Scott Kress