Ep. 77: How to Reinvent Mental Health Care with Dr. David Goldbloom
Matt Kelly
Listen, Rate & Subscribe
Apple Podcasts // Spotify // Google Podcasts // Stitcher
For too long, getting adequate mental health care has been difficult. There’s the stigma that, unfortunately, comes with saying you need help. And once you are ready to seek out care, where do you go? Who do you turn to? How can you get the mental health care you need in a timely fashion? Dr. David Goldbloom is a celebrated psychiatrist, professor and the senior medical advisor for Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. In his new book, We Can Do Better: Urgent Innovations to Improve Mental Health Access and Care, Dr. Goldbloom suggests clear solutions to many of these problems. This week, he joins Medcan CEO Shaun Francis to discuss how we can reinvent our mental health care system and what we can do for the people in our own lives.
LINKS
Read more on Dr. Goldbloom and his work at CAMH here.
You can buy his book, We Can Do Better, at Indigo.
Check out this recent op-ed by Dr. Goldbloom in the Globe and Mail.
Read this paper he co-authored last year on the future of apps in psychiatry, and watch a talk he gave at Casey House in Toronto on the stigma of mental health.
Learn more about the mental health guidelines and resources set out in the National Standard of Canada for Psychological Health and Safety in the workplace here, and consider signing up for the Mental Health First Aid course here.
INSIGHTS
We all know that COVID-19 has been hard on our mental health — depression and anxiety, in particular, spiked earlier on in the pandemic. But Dr. Goldbloom, who also worked during SARS, says he has seen a difference with how we regard our mental health during crises: “There is greater awareness of the mental health implications when dealing with the spread of highly infectious, and even lethal, viruses through our community,” he says. “I err on the side of optimism, perhaps, in thinking that we’re better attuned than we were.” Basically, the fact that we’ve been talking about our mental health during the pandemic is an improvement. [02:26]
At this point, no one would blame you for being sick of only communicating with people over video chats, but virtual therapy can actually be highly effective. Dr. Goldbloom has used the technology to provide care to small communities in Northern Ontario for 20 years, and loves how convenient it is for people who may have difficulty accessing in-person therapy otherwise. There’s also research to back up its usefulness: Dr. Goldbloom says it’s likely you’ll form just as great a connection with a psychiatrist virtually as you would in their office. That doesn’t mean in-person therapy is going to disappear, but he does think digital alternatives should remain viable long after the pandemic is over. [04:47]
“In Canada, our system of health care has been constructed around the idea that [it’s] provided by doctors, and often in hospitals. In the reality of the 21st century, most health care is received outside of hospitals, and should be delivered by multiple disciplines—not just physicians—but it’s hard for public funding to pivot as quickly as it needs to,” says Dr. Goldbloom. “That creates all kinds of bottlenecks and barriers for people who are seeking [care], so we’ve got a problem. When you say the system is broken, I’m not sure we could even describe it as a system. It’s a loosely-woven fabric of different services and providers, and navigating it … is a pretty major challenge.” [15:45]
So, if our “system” is in that much disrepair, what can be done? Dr. Goldbloom has a few innovative ideas. One is something that’s already starting to be implemented around the world: Youth-focused community hubs. Ideally, these are places where adolescents can seek mental, and certain kinds of physical, health treatments in an easy environment. This will make accessing care much easier, especially as it will help them avoid unnecessary hospital visits. Another solution Dr. Goldbloom would like to see is the continued development of virtual-based cognitive behavioural therapy. By this, he doesn’t mean more Zoom calls, but web-based tools where people can complete online assessments and receive a custom plan that is monitored by a licensed therapist. The goal behind innovations like this is to give people more flexibility in their treatment, and make progress at their own pace. [17:49]
“We need to think of ways to expand the net of services that are covered,” says Dr. Goldbloom, pointing to the United Kingdom, which offers mental health care through the National Health Service, as an example of success. He also argues that the private sector can help, too. “When you treat people for mental health problems, you realize a return on investment,” he says, adding that Deloitte or PricewaterhouseCoopers have done studies that prove this. “It’s good for the bottom line.” Employers can help by adapting their offered insurance programs, and by making changes in workplace policies and culture by adopting mental health care standards. [24:49]
And if you have someone in your own life who may need help? You’re not going to want to do a huge, Hollywood-style intervention, first of all. Instead, start by figuring out who they have the best connection to in their own life—maybe a parent, a friend, even a close colleague. “That person has to be prepared to be a bit of a pest,” says Dr. Goldbloom, as people who are struggling often tend to fend others off. This person has to be ready to stick with the process and make sure the other person knows you’re not going anywhere. What they need is the time and space to feel heard. [29:23]
EPISODE 77: HOW TO REINVENT MENTAL HEALTH CARE WITH DR. DAVID GOLDBLOOM FINAL WEB TRANSCRIPT
Christopher Shulgan: Welcome to Eat Move Think, episode 77. I'm executive producer Christopher Shulgan. We've talked a lot in this show about mental health and the pandemic, and the way we're facing a crisis situation as more people than ever before experience challenges in an environment that doesn't provide enough access to mental health care—and stigmatizes issues besides.
[00:00:29.16]
Christopher Shulgan: We've talked a lot about the problems of mental health. And today, we're going to talk with a man who knows the system in this country inside and out, and who has written a book about the solutions that can improve things in the next three to five years.
[00:00:43.29]
Christopher Shulgan: His name is Dr. David Goldbloom. A celebrated psychiatrist, Dr Goldbloom also is a Rhodes Scholar, and an officer of the Order of Canada. A professor at the University of Toronto, he's the senior medical advisor for CAMH—the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. His latest book, released this year, is called, We Can Do Better: Urgent Innovations to Improve Mental Health Access and Care. Dr. Goldbloom's message is in the title: we can do better, and we need to do so urgently.
[00:01:12.19]
Christopher Shulgan: On this week's episode, Dr. Goldbloom sits down with host and Medcan CEO Shaun Francis, to talk about our mental health care system and how it should change, his hopes for the future and what we can do for the people in our own lives.
[00:01:30.13]
Shaun Francis: So hi, I'm Shaun Francis, CEO of Medcan, founder of Eat Move Think the podcast, and I'm delighted to be with you today. For our listeners, we have Dr. David Goldbloom, psychiatrist and senior medical advisor to CAMH, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. And we're delighted to have you on our show today and discuss your book, We Can Do Better. And one of the great things I love about the book is that it talks about solutions, not just the problem. I can't think of a better time for this book to come in, and to have you on this podcast, because it seems with COVID and the various non-pharmaceutical interventions such as lockdowns, masks, etcetera, and the economic devastation, mental health has been exacerbated and maybe even overlooked in the analysis of total health trade-offs.
[00:02:27.10]
David Goldbloom: Well, you know, Shaun, I have the advantage of having enough white hair, that I worked through the SARS crisis back in 2003, and I can tell you that there is a striking difference between SARS and the current pandemic. And that is the greater awareness of the mental health implications of dealing with the spread of a highly infectious and even lethal virus through our communities. So I err on the side of optimism perhaps, in thinking that we're better attuned than we were. And that there has been, I think, more recognition of the mental health impact of COVID-19 than of previous problems we've dealt with. So I remain quite hopeful. At the same time, we've got to acknowledge the impact has been profound.
[00:03:29.21]
Shaun Francis: And how does that manifest itself? My vantage point, there's, obviously the fear element, the fear of getting COVID, or perhaps knowing somebody who passed away with COVID. But then your way of life, right? The energy you would normally get from friends, your work, your normal routines, all disappear.
[00:03:49.06]
David Goldbloom: Right. And for some people, it disappeared overnight. And there was no prep time. We kind of went into lockdown, and suddenly everything changed dramatically. There are varying degrees to which this has affected people, but you're right, the things that normally nourish us, that feed our sense of self worth, our self esteem, our sense of social connection, were yanked away. And I think that was really important as we become more and more aware of the physical health and mental health impact of things like loneliness.
[00:04:32.02]
Shaun Francis: And that's an interesting question in the way you framed it. To what degree can Zoom fulfill social connections as we knew them, or do you need to physically be with people, certainly at some point at least?
[00:04:47.17]
David Goldbloom: Yeah. And look, I'm speaking to you not only as a psychiatrist, but also as a grandfather who got to embrace grandchildren for the first time in a long time. And I can tell you, it's a qualitatively different experience than connecting with them on Zoom. But if the alternative is no connection at all, I'll take Zoom any day of the week. But I've been involved for about 20 years in the provision of tele-video virtual care to small communities in Northern Ontario. And so I was actually pretty familiar with the technology and the experience. One of the many lessons learned in a positive way from this experience of COVID is, in fact, how effective virtual care can be. Not only how effective it is, but also, frankly, how patient-centred and convenient it can be. In other words, if you live in Ajax or Milton and need to come for a medical appointment downtown in Toronto, the logistics of leaving work or arranging childcare, of transportation, of losing half a day for an appointment that may be half an hour, are completely done away with when we can provide that care virtually.
[00:06:21.04]
David Goldbloom: And not only that, it's a little like the experience of doing house calls, which is that you see people how and where they live, you often meet their family, their pets. And for most patients—not all—it's actually a highly palatable experience. And we've actually measured this in research, looking at the therapeutic alliance, how well connected does that person feel to a provider through a tele-video versus an in-person contact from a psychiatric perspective, and in our study, it was just as high. So that's why I'm up on this not as the only option, but as an option that we're going to retain long after the pandemic has subsided.
[00:07:13.06]
Shaun Francis: Is Is there a benefit to see your mental health professional in person if you can, to create that preliminary relationship? Or do you think it can be done all virtual?
[00:07:25.01]
David Goldbloom: We always need to be available in person for segments of our population. Think about people who are homeless, people who are living in a shelter, or in a very crowded setting, they're not going to be able to access this technology very easily. I've seen people in consultation sitting in their cars with their phone on the steering wheel because it's the only place where they can be assured of some privacy. So, yes, I don't think in-person visits are going to disappear, and certainly in many areas of medicine, the physical laying on of hands for purposes of examination are a pretty critical part of the encounter. But even in some of my colleagues who are physicians doing things like cardiology, they've discovered a number of these visits can be done virtually.
[00:08:29.04]
Shaun Francis: Well, certainly at Medcan that's been our experience. Thankfully, we had been—we were undergoing a massive digital transformation, not knowing there was a pandemic which also fantastically locked down primary care and urgent care in the first lockdown, which might be might have been a colossal mistake, given all the—I think there might be three million procedures now that haven't been done over the past 18 months.
[00:08:54.01]
David Goldbloom: Yeah, we're facing huge backlogs. And, you know, I worry about that. Diagnostic backlogs for people with cancer, surgical backlogs. And also, frankly, for some of our most ill people with mental illnesses, people with schizophrenia, or severe bipolar disorder, lack of support, a lack of access to resources that they traditionally counted on. So there is probably a storm yet to come.
[00:09:28.04]
Shaun Francis: So no doubt, in your opinion, mental health issues have been exacerbated during this period. What would be the most common conditions we'll see coming out of this?
[00:09:40.06]
David Goldbloom: You know, I think the commonest exacerbations have been in the area of anxiety and depression. And I think we have to be really careful when we look at national surveys across Canada that show increases in anxiety, increases in depression, because that doesn't necessarily mean that those respondents have a clinical psychiatric disorder in the sense that there's something pretty normal about feeling more anxious or more depressed in the context of COVID, and all of its personal implications for individuals. And indeed, you know, one of the striking things that has just come out in a major research initiative looking at the impact of COVID, is that a lot of these distress scores have come back to normal one year later.
[00:10:40.19]
David Goldbloom: So we saw a huge spike in psychological distress in the first few months of COVID, but it doesn't appear to be sustained. There are going to be individuals who are at greater risk, and who's at greater risk? Frankly, the people who had problems with anxiety and depression before COVID hit. But for the population at large, the numbers are mercifully coming down in terms of ratings of distress. And we've also seen that across about 20 countries surveyed, there's been no increase in the suicide rate, which is also encouraging because that was a big fear when COVID hit.
[00:11:30.01]
Shaun Francis: We have seen a spike in addiction-related deaths.
[00:11:34.13]
David Goldbloom: Yes, you're right to point that out. When we talk about deaths of despair in the wake of either COVID, or in the wake of the global financial crisis of 2008, that refers to suicide, alcohol-related deaths and drug overdoses. And what we've seen is that our opioid crisis in Canada got worse during COVID. And we've seen a jump in opioid-related fatalities, some of them clearly unintentional in terms of what's out there on the street.
[00:12:11.14]
David Goldbloom: Mercifully, as I said, the suicide rate has not gone up. But we do know that alcohol sales went up significantly during the pandemic, and a subset of people reported drinking a lot more. And, you know, part of it is people were at home with easy access to their liquor, and fewer constraints against drinking. So we know while we worry about things like the opioid crisis in terms of illegal substances, we have to be equally worried about things like alcohol and cigarettes, the legal substances, which have the potential to fill hospitals and graveyards.
[00:12:59.25]
Shaun Francis: And of course, they were considered an essential good during COVID, and working out had been shut down in Ontario. So it's a little counterintuitive.
[00:13:12.12]
David Goldbloom: Yes, it is.
[00:13:13.25]
Shaun Francis: So anxiety and depression, would that be two of the most common mental health conditions that you'd find in a given population?
[00:13:22.06]
David Goldbloom: Yes. And that applies prior to the pandemic, during the pandemic, and likely post pandemic.
[00:13:32.12]
Shaun Francis: And what sort of percentage of the population would you say might suffer from that?
[00:13:38.14]
David Goldbloom: Well, you know, if we think about depression in its formal sense—and I really want to emphasize the importance of that, because you will have people say, "Oh, I'm so depressed about the Maple Leafs, right? And they may be upset, but that's not clinical depression. Anybody who's struggled with a clinical depression can tell you in a heartbeat the difference between feeling sad and feeling depressed. And they usually say, "You know, when I'm sad, I know why I'm sad. I know it'll probably lift. When I'm depressed, it's not a question of feeling sad, I feel numb. I just don't react to anything, I feel empty. And it's endless. There's no relief. I feel like I'm in a bottomless pit."
[00:14:29.26]
David Goldbloom: And not only that, when people get into a state of depression, it disrupts everything: eating, sleep, concentration, memory, social drive, sexual drive, self worth. And in its darkest moments, leads people to question why they're alive, whether they're a burden on other people, and ultimately to contemplate whether they should kill themselves. That's a different experience from our casual use of depression. And, you know, it's a condition that affects about one in five women, and one in 10 men over the course of their lives. So in any given year, you've probably got, you know, five percent of the population that's struggling with depression, and about a similar percent with anxiety.
[00:15:33.06]
Shaun Francis: In your book, you talk about how the system is broken.
[00:15:38.05]
David Goldbloom: Yeah.
[00:15:38.20]
Shaun Francis: And there's better ways of doing things. Can you talk first, like, you know, why is it broken, and then let's get into some solutions going forward.
[00:15:46.11]
David Goldbloom: In Canada, our system of healthcare has been constructed in terms of publicly-funded healthcare, around the idea that healthcare is provided by doctors, and often in hospitals. And the reality of 21st-century health care is most of it is received outside of hospitals, and should be delivered by multiple disciplines, not just physicians. But it's hard for public funding to pivot as quickly as it needs to to that model, and that creates all kinds of bottlenecks and barriers for people who are seeking health. So we've got a problem. When you say the system is broken, I'm not sure we could even describe it as a system. It's a loosely-woven fabric of different services and providers, and navigating it, knowing which door to knock on, is a pretty major challenge. The default is you go to your family doctor—if you're lucky enough to have a family doctor—and they function as quarterbacks or navigators depending on your metaphor, to help you get to the right door.
[00:17:06.17]
Shaun Francis: How good a job are they doing, in your opinion? Let's use Ontario as an example.
[00:17:10.28]
David Goldbloom: Sure. I have huge sympathy for primary care providers, who multiple times an hour are confronted with people and problems, where they need to call in additional resources. And how are they expected to stay on top of what's available to help people? So I think they make valiant efforts, and the ones that I've worked with over the years, both family doctors and nurse practitioners, give it yeoman's effort. They really work hard to make things better for their patients. And they are extremely frustrated because psychiatrists are hard to access, and they don't know what other resources are available and out there. And so it requires innovative solutions.
[00:18:05.21]
David Goldbloom: And some of that is what I've tried to touch on in my book for various populations. For instance, you know, we have a problem with children and youth. And that's where most mental health problems have their onset is in adolescence and early adulthood. And what we're seeing in the pandemic is increasing numbers of young people who are disproportionately negatively affected by the pandemic, especially in terms of mental health, are going to emergency rooms as their first port of call when they're in trouble. It's not the best place to begin a journey of accessing mental health care. So there has been something happening in Canada, and that's the development of integrated youth services. These are community hubs. They're not based in hospitals or traditional clinics. They are community hubs where young people aged 14 to 25, can go without an appointment, and measure their wait times for accessing some kind of help, not in weeks or months, but in hours to days. And it's a place where care can be integrated around physical health, mental health, vocational and academic help.
[00:19:30.13]
David Goldbloom: And these are environments that are co-designed with youth and families to create an environment where they feel comfortable. It scares the hell out of people to have to go to some offices or clinics or hospitals, versus an environment that puts them at ease. So that is one type of intervention, and it's the subject of research right now in Canada, but it's actually happening now in every jurisdiction, and spreading rapidly. It's probably the single biggest transformation of how we bring mental health services to young people.
[00:20:12.03]
David Goldbloom: So that's one example, but the other reality that's been exacerbated by the pandemic is the need to develop digitally-based services. In the area of cognitive behavioural therapy, there's been more than a decade of research on how this could be delivered effectively through a digital platform. This is where people complete an online assessment, and then a platform is customized for them of web-based tools for them to work on. And there is a licenced therapist who is monitoring their progress, and with whom they have unlimited asynchronous text messaging. Studies that have compared that technique to our traditional meet-me-at-my-office face-to-face CBT show equivalent outcomes. So that's really important, because it also means you work on it on your own time, not when you have a fixed appointment. So again, that brings me back to this idea of care that's patient-centred, rather than saying, "You will get help Tuesday at three o'clock. And if you miss your appointment, you're screwed." Right? This gives more flexibility.
[00:21:38.11]
Shaun Francis: What's the biggest problem we have in Ontario today, in your opinion, regarding mental health, be they more common conditions like anxiety and depression, or the more severe like bipolar or schizophrenia?
[00:21:51.26]
David Goldbloom: Well, I think there are multiple big issues. The first one is the ongoing lack of access to care, and delays in access to care. The second one would be that care, even when delivered may be all over the map, not standardized in a way that is likely to lead to better outcomes, and not measured in a way that leads to proof that better outcomes have been achieved. And measurement-based care is something that is going to transform mental health care.
[00:22:32.03]
David Goldbloom: Nobody would think to say, "I think my blood pressure's under better control," without knowing the numbers, right? And yet we accept that when it comes to mental health treatments, when I think the burden of proof should be higher, that we should be able to measure our work. And in fact, the research shows clearly that when you measure it, it gets better outcomes
[00:23:00.09]
David Goldbloom: The third thing is, I would say when it comes to the more severe mental illnesses you mentioned, like bipolar disorder, and especially schizophrenia, we know that even in rich, well-resourced countries like Canada, people with schizophrenia die 15 to 20 years earlier than people without schizophrenia. And that's not death by suicide, that's death from medical causes. We know that they have less access to cancer treatments, cardiac surgeries, things like that. And that's an inequity that exists in the context of a universal healthcare system. And that's not right. And of course, any of us who works in the downtown core has walked past people sleeping in sleeping bags on heating grates, representing the kind of end product of a failure of our system, and probably more broadly our society to care for people in need. So the solutions are not purely medical—I really want to emphasize the importance of that. They're social. We can't provide medical treatment for people who have no place to live, who have no money.
[00:24:23.13]
Shaun Francis: So your optimal world, would your medical team have access—so for example, the family doctor might be able to diagnose something less severe, maybe recommend some holistic treatment, you know, diet, exercise, some mindfulness, an app, but then have access to a social worker or psychologist and a psychiatrist.
[00:24:49.28]
David Goldbloom: Yes. And look, mental health, as I said earlier, is multidisciplinary. There are lots of people who can provide excellent, high-quality, evidence-based and measured care, mental health care in terms of psychotherapy, without being a PhD psychologist, without being a psychiatrist. But those people are not traditionally funded by the public system outside of hospitals. And so we need to think of ways to expand the net of whose services are covered. And they've done that in the United Kingdom quite successfully, and it's all through the National Health Service. And the payoff is that when you treat people—and frankly, the private sector has discovered this in a big way, when you treat people for mental health problems, you realize a return on investment. And you don't have to take my word for it as a psychiatrist, you can look at Deloitte or PricewaterhouseCoopers, who have done the kinds of studies that show in the private sector, the return on investment is realized within a couple of years of investing in mental health services. It's good for the bottom line of the private sector.
[00:26:19.05]
Shaun Francis: Yeah, I feel like in the private sector, for the most part, it's been dealt with through EAPs.
[00:26:24.13]
David Goldbloom: Right.
[00:26:24.29]
Shaun Francis: Which feel like they've been commoditized, and most employees couldn't even tell you who their EAP provider is.
[00:26:33.06]
David Goldbloom: Right. You know, to me, that's only a small part of the battle in the private sector. Because you can say, "Okay, we contracted out to an EAP provider. I guess we're done." And they've done nothing to change the culture of the organization. They've left people with the fear, which I hear about all the time, that somehow when you contact EAP, it's going to leach back to HR, that it's going to have implications for you in your workplace. So people are skittish, or they feel that the EAP is not really positioned to handle the complexity of what they are dealing with. Now again, going back to a stepped-care approach, EAP may be a place to start, but it's not where some people need to end up. And, you know, we've got examples of private sector employers in Canada like Starbucks and Manulife who have increased the benefits for mental health dramatically. And I think a full-time barista at Starbucks is entitled to up to $5,000 a year in coverage for mental health services. Now that's different than the traditional $500 a year for either mental health services or massage.
[00:28:01.03]
Shaun Francis: If I'm an executive at one of these large companies who might only be doing EAP, what more should I be doing? Looking at something like increasing the benefit for all mental health? Are there other strategies we should be considering?
[00:28:12.20]
David Goldbloom: Yeah. You know, we're lucky in Canada that we developed through the Mental Health Commission of Canada, the world's first set of standards for psychological health and safety in the workplace. And these are still considered to date the best in the world. In fact, they've been adopted by the entire legal community in Australia as their standards as well. And these are freely available to anybody in the private or public sector. They've been implemented in groups, as small as 11 people in a law firm, or 100,000 people in a Regional Health Authority. And it's got about 13 domains of areas where you can do work to improve psychological health and safety in the workplace. And it's culture, it's leadership, it's policies, it's practices, it's a whole bunch of things. And it's way more than funding an EAP program.
[00:29:16.02]
Shaun Francis: What do you say to the family that has a loved one that may not be getting the help they need? What should they be doing?
[00:29:24.18]
David Goldbloom: This is a common problem. And, you know, the first thing is to figure out who has the best leverage with that person. Who's got the connection that they will listen to one on one without the person feeling ganged up on by the whole family? And, you know, it may not be a family member. It may be a friend, it may be a colleague. And then that person has to be prepared to be a bit of a pest. And the reason I say that is that people who are struggling will often fend you off. They'll say, "No, no, no, no. I'm fine. I'm okay." And if you know in your gut this is not how this person normally is, you've got to stick with it. And it's not the kind of conversation that you have with your hand on the doorknob as you're leaving their office. It's the kind of conversation where you sit down with them in a quiet space, and you make it clear you're not in a rush to go anywhere, you're prepared to be with them and talk with them, and let them know what you see, right? Because again, if they say I'm fine and that doesn't sit right with you, you got to think, "No, no. I don't think you are fine. Here's what I've noticed, here's what other people have noticed that I've heard about. And here's things that could be helpful."
[00:30:47.00]
Shaun Francis: That's great. Like, who would they bring someone to? Their family doctor?
[00:30:50.15]
David Goldbloom: Commonly, that's the first port of call. But it may not be the only one. If they are religious, for instance, they may have a spiritual counsellor who's important to them. You know, there's a really good course called Mental Health First Aid that's offered by the Mental Health Commission of Canada. And it's a 12-hour course that teaches you—much like physical first aid—how to be a first responder to somebody who's in a crisis. And it doesn't turn you into a clinician or a therapist, but it does help you navigate those initial steps. And, you know, hundreds of thousands of Canadians have taken this course, including our previous Governor General David Johnston and his wife. So it's a really good skill for people to acquire.
[00:31:45.16]
Shaun Francis: That's fascinating. Thank you again, Dr. David Goldbloom, this has been an amazing session. I mean, really informative for me personally, and I know for our listeners. You know, I think the pandemic if anything has been a real eye opener for a lot of us on how mental health can afflict us, and we do have to look at more accessibility, more integration, more awareness, and more tools. And I appreciate your candour and time with us today.
[00:32:16.06]
David Goldbloom: Thanks so much for having me, Shaun.
[00:32:29.18]
Christopher Shulgan: That was Medcan CEO Shaun Francis in conversation with Dr. David Goldbloom, senior medical advisor at CAMH, and the author of We Can Do Better. We'll post a link to the book at Eatmovethinkpodcast.com, as well as insights and a full episode transcript.
[00:32:45.01]
Christopher Shulgan: Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. I'm executive producer Christopher Shulgan. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Patricia Karounos is associate producer. Social media and strategy support is from Chantel Guertin, Andrew Imecs and Campbell MacKinnon.
[00:33:00.16]
Christopher Shulgan: Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favourite podcast platform. Follow our host Shaun Francis on Twitter and Instagram @ShaunCFrancis—that's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @Medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with a new episode examining the latest in health and wellness.
-30-