Ep. 47: Successful Lifestyle Change with Dr. Jack Muskat
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The show continues to explore behavioural change, this time with the new Medcan psychology team lead Dr. Jack Muskat and executive producer Christopher Shulgan. The two men use their own personal experiences with lasting lifestyle change to extract lessons for those looking to use the new year, and the next phase of the pandemic, as an opportunity to improve one’s life. Find complete show notes at www.eatmovethinkpodcast.com.
Links, references and highlights:
Episode guest Dr. Jack Muskat, Ph.D., is a Toronto based organizational psychologist, writer and speaker with over 25 years consulting and business experience with individuals and organizations. He advises senior executives and managers around selection and developmental planning. His clinical work focuses on issues relating to stress, anxiety and depression, as well as interpersonal issues.
According to Dr. Jack Muskat, a great book on stress is Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers by Robert M. Sapolsky.
For more science on how to work out the mechanics of habit formation, consider checking out The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg.
Check out Dr. Jack Muskat’s e-book: Leadership and All The S#!t That Comes With It.
The first volume in our “how to change” series featured Dr. David Macklin in conversation with host Shaun Francis in episode 45.
Learn more about Medcan psychology services.
Follow Shaun Francis on Twitter and Instagram, and Medcan @medcanlivewell.
Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau.
Successful Long-Term Lifestyle Change with Dr. Jack Muskat final web transcript
Christopher Shulgan
Welcome to Eat Move Think, the podcast from Medcan CEO Shaun Francis that empowers people of all ages and cultures to live well for life. I'm executive producer Christopher Shulgan, and this episode is the latest in a series that explores the idea of lifestyle change.
Christopher Shulgan
We've all heard the saying: A leopard doesn't change its spots. It's been around for thousands of years, and actually dates from the Old Testament of the Bible, and a similar sentiment crops up in various ways throughout culture. But the pandemic has challenged this notion, I think. We've all changed over the last year: Not going into the office, not taking the kids to sports practices, the wholesale transformation to everyone's social life—all of that has altered everyone's day-to-day existence.
Christopher Shulgan
And if that's the case, if all these external factors have so affected our daily habits, doesn't that suggest that other modifications are possible? Ones that can set us up for better, healthier lives? In other words, that leopards actually might be able to change their spots?
Christopher Shulgan
As the guest host in today's episode, that's the notion that I'll be exploring with Medcan's new psychology team lead, Dr. Jack Muskat. Here's our conversation.
Christopher Shulgan
We're talking about change today. And you and I both believe in change, the power of change and the ability to change. And I think there's a conventional wisdom out there, or at least some aphorisms that indicate that people don't change, people aren't able to change. You and I disagree about that. And the reason that we do both personal experience, and then I think also just neither one of us are young bucks, I would say. And personal experience suggests that change is possible, that people do change. And actually one of the only constants is change. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Jack Muskat
Yeah, sure. I mean, it's really interesting. People are really contradictory. We all say we're bored, we all say we want change. But when we're given change, we're all afraid of change. And it's very hard to do. And I think one of the reasons why people fail to change is they really don't understand how to go about it, and how difficult it is. And there are many, many complex reasons for that. But at the simplest level, people don't change because they don't know how to change. They don't know the habits and routines that are necessary for change. And they really don't have a clear idea of what their goals are and how they want to approach them.
Christopher Shulgan
Can you just quickly walk me through your career?
Jack Muskat
I've had a long career. I started initially in psychology, working with children and youth, and got my doctorate at the University of Toronto in child and clinical and school psychology. And spent the first part of my career in clinical work, working with adults, children, teenagers, working in schools, looking at learning disabilities, mental health issues, behavioural problems. And then later on in my career, I was more interested in organizational work. So I like to describe it as I spent the first half of my career getting people from a deficit position to zero, and then the second half getting people from zero to high performance, and how they can improve to be at their best. And particularly during this COVID pandemic, with people working from home, where do we draw the boundaries? So it really gives me an opportunity to combine the two areas, and being able to help patients and corporations and organizations figure out the best way to optimize their productivity and the mental health of their employees that they're very concerned with.
Christopher Shulgan
Why did you get into psychology?
Jack Muskat
I got into psychology because I wasn't good enough playing the piano. I wanted to be a jazz piano player, and it just didn't work out in those days. So I looked at what was second on my list, and I got an A in psychology. So I said, "Okay, I'll do that." So sometimes you make decisions in life based on second choices, but I hope people aren't too frightened, because after a few years, I got better at psychology. So if you hear my piano playing, you'll say better that you're a psychologist. [laughs]
Christopher Shulgan
Do you still play?
Jack Muskat
Yeah, I do. I do. I really enjoy it. And it's one of the ways that I deal with stress is to play the piano. But when you play it for pleasure, I think it's a lot different. And I've actually been taking lessons for many years and really enjoy it.
Christopher Shulgan
What we're doing today is creating a bit of a framework for change. This episode is not a standalone episode. This is part of a series that began with Dr. David Macklin talking about taking some of the techniques of weight management and applying them to change and habit creation overall. And then there will be this episode, and then there will be several episodes happening later in January that also explore the idea of change and personal change, and how to change.
Jack Muskat
So you and I spoke, Chris, we both have made changes in our personal lives. Four years ago, I lost 40 pounds. I was what I called very politely, a fat, fit guy, although I carried it well, but I didn't realize I had that weight to lose. But what motivated me was the desire to feel better, and to be able to be more active, and to have more energy, and to be able to accomplish more in my life. And I've kept the weight off for the last four years. It took me nine months to lose it. So the challenge is that people don't really work at it long enough to get a sense of the reward, and then they give up.
Christopher Shulgan
There are ways to make it easier for people. Like, you know, we build it up into this really difficult thing. And I think one way to think about that is that in the pandemic, I think a lot of us have changed our behaviours, and we've seen changes in our behaviour. And possibly that could be because we're not commuting for two hours per day, or we're not at work. And so we see changes happen as a result of these external factors. And now, with this turn from 2020, this terrible year, now we're turning to this year that is going to feature the vaccine, ideally, that is going to feature some sort of an end to the pandemic. And we're all thinking about this idea that, well, how do we redesign our lives a second time? And so can you talk a little bit about how external factors—you called them stressors—how external factors can create a circumstance where change is easier, or change can be easier?
Jack Muskat
Right. Well I mean, you mentioned stress, and stress is the key word here. And I would recommend to our audience, if you really want to read the best book that I've read on stress, it's by Robert Sapolsky. It's about 10 years old now. It's called Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. And it has to do with the idea that we are hardwired with a fight or flight response. And when a zebra is out in its environment and it sees a lion, it releases this stress hormone which allows it to have the energy, through adrenaline and the cortisol that's released and the norepinephrine that helps it be aroused, and it gets out of there and gets away from the threat. And then 30 seconds later, if it survives, it's fine. But we get stressed, and we have no way of getting rid of it. Because that stimulus is there. We don't get eaten by the lion, but we certainly get scared by the lion every day.
Jack Muskat
The point I want to say is that part of the problem is that the things we're using to cope are just exacerbating the problem. So we know what we need to do. And what I find with virtually everyone, all my patients, everyone knows what to do. And Dr. Macklin spoke about it in his webinar, I'm going to speak about it today: we need to eat healthy, we need to exercise more, we need to get more sleep, we need to have a strong social environment. But it's very difficult to do that if you can't sleep, if you're chronically fatigued because you can't sleep, it impairs your thinking and impairs your judgment, it impairs your ability to make good choices. If you're surrounded by things that you're not able to deal with, then you reach out for the thing that's going to take away the pain. So for most of us, we're struggling with the fact that we are not able to deal with things in a normal way like the zebra who can remove itself from that threat. We have to face that threat. So in order to do that, we have to find different ways of coping and different things that we can do.
Jack Muskat
And that kind of leads me to the values clarification that Dr. Macklin was talking about, that we're not going to do things just because it's a nice thing to do. You know, eat right, exercise. These are nice things to have. We're going to do those things because they matter to us and they're very important to us. And I was just listening on the news yesterday, you know, Tiger Woods and his son were just playing in a golf tournament. And Tiger said that he wants to keep playing because he wants to see his son grow up and play. And Tiger changed his golf swing years ago, and he was motivated to that because he wanted to be the best golfer in the world. I often ask people what is the most important thing to you: yourself, your family or your work? And virtually everyone says, my family. My family is the most important. And I say, "Wrong answer. You should be the most important person." Because without you, you can't be there for your family. And so people who do make changes, unfortunately, you'll see those changes occur after certain traumatic events: a health scare, a heart attack, some family problem that says, you know, I can't live like this anymore, we're going to make changes. And they do that.
Jack Muskat
But what really motivates people is to dig deeply into why do I want to make this change? When you asked why we don't change, everybody knows what they have to do. If somebody says, "You know, why am I getting fat or eating hamburgers and french fries?" Well, you know, the answer is stop eating them. But that's not the answer. They know that. But why don't they value themselves as much as they value others? Some people who are pet owners get mad at me when I say, you know, you put your dog on a science diet, you're giving your pet the best nutrition, but you're stuffing yourself with junk food. You know, what does that say about you? And why don't you value yourself? And that has a lot to do with the negative messages that we've either been given growing up, or that we give ourselves, that we don't feel that we deserve it, so we don't make the time for things. You know, you and I talked. I know that you are a writer and you're a broadcaster, and you do so many things that many of us would love to do. And I asked you where do you find the time? But of course you find the time, because it's important for you. And then you develop the habits that go along with that.
Jack Muskat
And I think that's where I think people are really struggling. I'll say one more thing. I lost the weight, in part, because I started to pay attention to what I was doing. I had to measure and record my food intake, which I never did before. So I started weighing the food. I bought a scale, I started measuring what I was eating, I started recording it. And, you know, Leslie Beck talks a lot about mindful eating. Once you become more mindful about what you're eating, you're then more aware of what you're doing. And then you can build in alternate cues so that you can step away from the table when you've had the portion of food you need. You can have that glass of water. You can make sure that you're not tempted by other distractions that get in the way.
Christopher Shulgan
You said you lost 40 pounds in nine months. That's a remarkable achievement. To what do you credit that incredible achievement?
Jack Muskat
Well, for two things. One, I told everybody that I was going to lose the weight. You know, it was out there. If you want to do something, tell people you're doing it. And I had the support of my wife who is incredibly great. We got rid of all of the junk in our house. And I lost 11 pounds just by changing my diet, and just by cutting out—you know, reducing my alcohol intake. I cut out some foods and I also exercised. Later on, I walked a lot. And then I started running again. But I really attribute it to the reward piece, which was I started to look better and feel better. I could wear clothes in a way that I didn't wear them before. I could feel my knees weren't as sore. I felt lighter on my feet, I felt healthier. And that's very important. There's no point telling people to make changes if they're not feeling rewards. And so I got back to what I weighed in college. And I'm sort of—it's been four years. Yes, I have put on eight pounds through the pandemic, I have to admit. But that's because I haven't been able to do the kinds of things that I would normally do around fitness. But I'm mindful of it.
Jack Muskat
The other piece, even around, you know, writing or any task that people want to do, they give up too easily. They either take on too big of a goal, so as we look at 2021 and people have these great big plans that they're going to, you know, exercise more or lose weight or do some other project. And I work with individuals in the corporate setting where they want to make changes. In fact, the statistics are now telling us that one in four employees are going to make a job change in 2021 as they reflect on what they want to do in the future. And so the first question I say is, "How are you going to do that? What's your resume look like?" And they say, "Oh, I haven't done a resume." "Well, how are you going to get a job? You know, what do you need to do?" They say, "Well, I can look at it." "Well, what are you going to put in it?" So we try to get things at a very granular level. What are those little steps? I want to write a book, but it's so daunting. Well, can you write 500 words a day, or 300 words a day? If you write a page a day, in three months you'll have a book. So it's the little pieces.
Christopher Shulgan
So to go back and to kind of assemble the narrative of your big behavioural change, you started your intake, and then that triggered a desire to decrease your food intake, which then created all these rewards.
Jack Muskat
Right. And then my appetite went down, and then I started to feel better. And then I said, I just don't eat like that anymore. And the other piece that I think was really important—and it took about a month—was being able to tell other people who are saying, "Oh, it's so and so's birthday, here's a piece of birthday cake. Have that." Or, "We're just going to have a drink. Just have one glass of wine, it won't hurt you," is I felt that people were sabotaging me. And they were well-meaning, they weren't out to get me. But people associate food with pleasure. And for some people it is. I had to say, "I just can't eat like that anymore." I haven't had a french fry in three years.
Christopher Shulgan
That's amazing.
Jack Muskat
And it goes away. Like, what's really weird, and Charles Duhigg in his book, Power of Habit, it takes six weeks to create a habit and one week to lose it. And we don't give ourselves enough time. So if you track the gym memberships, everyone's going to start in January. By February 5, they've quit. If they only went another week or two, they'd get into that habit. You have to think of it as, change is really important and I'm going to make that time for myself. And that's where I think people really underestimate. They think it's about motivation and intent, but it's really about habits and routines. And we're not kind to ourselves.
Jack Muskat
I mean, I have to tell you, I had weeks where my weight plateaued. I had moments where I did eat the wrong thing. But I didn't say, "Okay, well, you know, I'm off my plan. So now I'm going to give it up." No, you go back on the saddle, you do it again. You don't quit. It's not going to be a straight line. But you want the trend to be moving up.
Christopher Shulgan
I like what you said about people giving up too easily. Like, I do think if change is possible, and we don't succeed the first time or the second time, we've got to keep trying is the idea. So, you know, my big life change was quitting drinking. And, you know, so that's 11 and a half years ago. And I was in a situation where I essentially couldn't continue. I had this, like, drug habit that I sort of like one day woke up and I was like, "Whoa! I'm addicted to drugs. Like, this is crazy." But I was. And so I tried in a bunch of different ways to stop. And it didn't work. It didn't work for a couple years, and my life was like, you know, collapsing around me. And then finally, I stopped drinking. And stopping drinking was having, like, you know, a half dozen beers was the step toward the drugs. And if I stopped the half dozen beers, then magically, you know, you don't do the drugs.
Christopher Shulgan
In order to stop the drugs, I needed to stop the drinking. And that took me a while. That probably took about two years to essentially reorganize the pieces of my life and my social interactions and my habits, to set up a situation for myself where I was able to change, where that change stuck. But it's this process of life reorganization to set yourself up for success that is interesting to me. And that, I think, also kind of worked for you as well, where you had to start recording what you ate. So that helped. That helped create an insight that oh, I really need to change. I'm eating terrible things. You sort of have to reorganize your life to set yourself up for success. And if you don't do it the first time, do it again and do it again until you figure it out. Because change is possible, and it's this life reorganization. You just need to sort of rearrange the chess pieces. If you don't rearrange the chess pieces the right way the first time, try it again. I'm wondering, does that metaphor resonate with you?
Jack Muskat
Yeah. And not only do you have to rearrange the chess pieces, you have to rearrange the game you're playing. Maybe your game isn't chess, maybe it's checkers. Maybe it's something entirely different. I will say that in terms of my own life, why did I, you know, quote, "lose the weight?" It just didn't look right on me to not have that—I'm a competitive person, I want to know things. I'm intellectually curious. And it just didn't feel good that I didn't have control over that aspect of my life. And I wanted to feel confident. And what it really was—and I keep coming back to this for our audience who are primarily, I would say, let's say in the business community, but primarily high-achieving people who want to do the best, I'll put out this challenge to everyone for 2021: Be the best person you can be at what you do.
Jack Muskat
We're not all going to be at the top of everything. It's not important to be the number one, but be the number one at your own game because you have something very important to offer. And when I put on my corporate hat and look at the performance coaching that I do and the work that I do with with clients around how can we be the best at what we do, you don't want to put junk into your body. You don't want to put things that aren't going to make you feel better. You don't want to be in a situation that's stressful. And I have to say, getting back to what you were saying, is we have to surround ourselves with positive people. And we have to, you know, metaphorically cut the crap out of our lives, too. And it's really hard. We're under stress. We can't say we were all given, you know, the best early upbringing or, you know, we didn't choose our parents or the way in which we were going to be raised, or the kinds of challenges we have. You know, I don't know if I can quote Woody Allen anymore, but he said, "My life was great, but I have some moments that need to be edited out." And I would say the same thing that we have moments in our lives that we are probably less proud than others. But that's okay. It's moving on.
Jack Muskat
I'm not saying that I've gotten smarter, I'm saying that I'm remembering certain things better, and I'm enjoying certain things more. And that enjoyment is because I've got the mental energy. So what we do in therapy is we help our patients prioritize and say, "You've got too many tabs open. Let's try to get back to the core tabs that are important for you. And what are those things that we need to ensure that work for you?" And I partner with them. I don't have any preconceived ideas of what's right. But very often, it's a matter of, you know, people's lives are complicated. You know, weather is complex, a Rubik's cube is complicated, but you can solve it.
Christopher Shulgan
We have the values piece of it, we have the intention piece of it. And that can set someone on a journey toward change.
Jack Muskat
Right.
Christopher Shulgan
And then obstacles come up, problems come up. And often what happens is that the problem comes up, we backslide in some way and give up. But increasingly, more and more people are encouraging people to see the obstacle in the backsliding as a natural evolution in this journey toward change.
Jack Muskat
Right.
Christopher Shulgan
And I think you subscribe to that thinking too. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jack Muskat
Absolutely. I think that we're not perfect, and we are going to have certain things that come up and certain stressors that are unpredictable. Certainly, the biggest stressor we have right now is the pandemic. And so what do we do? We reach for comfort foods. We reach for things—you know, I don't want to sound cynical, but it's kind of interesting that, you know, the LCBO and the cannabis stores are all open, considered an essential service.
Jack Muskat
So, I know we covered a lot of things today, Chris. But I think generally, the idea is that we shouldn't underestimate how much stress affects us. And it's very difficult when you're in the middle of it. But to be able to pull back, to create an ecosystem around you that gives you the support you need, and to give yourself a pat on the back and say that, you know, I'm going to believe in myself, I'm going to affirm what I'm doing, and I'm going to be kind to myself. And every little step that I'm taking that helps me move forward is a step in the right direction. And if I'm rewarded by it, then that's the right thing to do. So we want to substitute our bad habits with good habits. And that's probably the only way to get rid of our bad habits is not have the time to do them, because we're doing other things like having this wonderful interview with you. So thank you. Thank you.
Christopher Shulgan
Thank you for this. I think the single biggest insight from this, set against this backdrop of this mass societal reorganization, which is spurring, I think, people to undergo their own inner reorganizations, their own—like, looking at themselves, to redesign their own lives as we redesign society, as we come back to some sense of normalcy with the pandemic, is that change is possible and to stick at it at this unprecedented moment. Thanks very much for this. Very much appreciate it.
Jack Muskat
Pleasure, Chris. Thanks to be here.
Christopher Shulgan
That's it for this episode of Eat Move Think. We post episode highlights and full episode transcripts at eatmovethinkpodcast.com.
Christopher Shulgan
Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella. Editorial direction from Chantel Guertin.
Christopher Shulgan
Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favourite podcast platform. Follow host Shaun Francis on Twitter and Instagram @shauncfrancis—that's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with a new episode examining the latest in health and wellness.