Ep. 40: Are You Getting Enough Sleep?
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Canada’s new 24-Hour Movement Guidelines include brand-new recommendations for sleep. The move reflects a growing awareness among researchers that rest and recovery is crucial to overall wellness. Not getting enough shut-eye can lead to weight gain, memory problems and poor mental health. In this episode, host Shaun Francis interviews Dr. Jean-Philippe Chaput, the expert who helped to develop both Canadian and World Health Organization guidelines. (That’s him pictured mid-slumber, above.)
LINKS AND HIGHLIGHTS:
Dr. Jean-Philippe Chaput’s Twitter handle is @drjpchaput
Dr. Chaput’s academic web page at the Children Hospital of Eastern Ontario’s Healthy Active Living and Obesity Research group.
The 24-Hour Movement Guidelines from the Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology, which Dr. Chaput helped develop, and which include recommendations on sleep as an integral component to a preventive wellness strategy.
Are You Getting Enough Sleep? final web transcript
Chris Shulgan
Christopher Shulgan here, executive producer of Eat Move Think. Sleep—it's maybe the only thing that's improved since the pandemic. Quiet street, no commutes, the statistics show we're sleeping longer. But some of us feel some misgivings about that. Sleep's been portrayed as an activity for the lazy. That famous quote, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." Trump bragged that he logged just four hours a night.
Chris Shulgan
But in the last decade there’s been a revolution around the topic. We’re understanding that rest and recovery is critical for our wellness. How much shuteye we’re getting affects weight management, immune function and all sorts of brain performance.
Chris Shulgan
Which is why, in this episode, Eat Move Think host Shaun Francis interviews Dr. Jean-Philippe Chaput, the so-called "Dr. Sleep." He’s a senior research scientist with the Healthy Active Living and Obesity Research Group at the Children’s Hospital of Eastern Ontario, and an associate professor of pediatrics at the University of Ottawa. Dr. Chaput also helped develop the Canadian 24-Hour Movement Guidelines and the World Health Organization Guidelines on Physical Activity and Sedentary Behaviour.
Chris Shulgan
In his conversation with Shaun, Dr. Chaput argues that sleep duration and quality is a first principle for human wellness. He also says that long-term sleep deprivation may explain why Trump is the way he is. Here’s Shaun’s conversation with Dr. Jean Philippe Chaput.
Shaun Francis
So welcome listeners to the Eat Move Think podcast. I'm really delighted today to be hosting Dr. Jean-Philippe Chaput, one of the top global researchers into the domain of sleep. It's timely because I only got six hours of sleep last night. So sleep has been on my mind today. And I'd love to dive into this topic with Jean-Philippe. So welcome, Jean-Philippe. Why don't we kick it off, and maybe you could explain how did you even get into this whole specialty of sleep to begin with as a researcher?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yes, of course. First of all, thank you for inviting me. It's my real pleasure to be here with you guys. I think it all started about 15 years ago, when I was doing my PhD in Quebec City at Laval University. And my background is in physical activity. I was doing work with people with excess weight, trying to prevent and treat obesity in adults. And then, of course, we talked a lot about diet, exercise and stuff like that. And my supervisor came to me with a new paper that came out from a group in Chicago, where they showed that short sleepers, so people not sleeping enough, were gaining more weight, and because they were eating more. So it was kind of very new for the field at that time. We know that we need to eat better and to move more, and so on and so forth. But sleep was never on the radar at that point in time. And then I got very curious about it, so I digged a bit deeper into databases that we had at the time, finding correlation between lack of sleep and weight gain, trying to understand the mechanisms behind why short sleepers eat more, move less and gain some weight over time, I think. So for the past 15 years, I've been known as Dr. Sleep in the media. I think it's my main tag now in research, I will say. Lots of stuff on healthy, active living in general, but sleep will be my main area of research as of now.
Shaun Francis
Where does sleep fit into healthy living from a priority perspective?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
I would say that sleep is as important as exercising and eating well in the package for good health. We talk a lot about the two main pillars of health: eating well, moving more, but I think sleep as has been seen as a black sheep in the field. Seeing people talk about the fact that we will see points where they're seeing sleep as a waste of time in a work-obsessed society. And I think there's so many studies showing the adverse effects of lack of sleep on mental health, on physical health, quality of life, immune systems, and so many outcomes. And I think I can show you thousands of studies showing it is as important as moving more, eating well in the package for good health. So it prevents chronic diseases down the road. And if you change your sleeping habits, you're going to improve those outcomes as well. So it's not just lack of sleep leading to adverse health outcomes, but by changing bad sleeping habits into good sleeping habits, you improve your mental health and your physical health.
Shaun Francis
Before we get into what those habits are, in your research, what is the connection between sleep and good health? What's the science behind it?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So if we don't sleep enough, when we talk about memory, about attention, concentration, it's very clear that lack of sleep impacts that on many other levels. So if we don't sleep enough, we know that we eat more, about 400 calories more per day. So by sleeping less, you're more hours awake, so more time to go to the fridge and to the cookie jar to eat. So it's a stress factor for the body by not sleeping enough. So for short sleepers, so adults sleeping less than seven hours per night, we see changes in many hormones in our body. Talking about here for example, cortisol, leptin, ghrelin, glucose and so on and so forth. So they are all impacted by lack of sleep. So it's already a stressor or a stress factor for the body to not sleep enough, and it impacts on their behaviours. So we know that short sleepers are more tired, less likely to go to the gym to exercise, more likely to sit more, watch Netflix. More likely to eat more, the brain craves for high-fat, high-sugar foods. So think about poutine, about pizza, stuff like that. You don't crave for fruits and veggies. So I think there's many mechanisms put forward that can explain why lack of sleep leads to mental health problems and physical health problems down the road. And we know much more about that within the past 10 years, which is a quite recent field of study compared to physical activity and diet.
Shaun Francis
If you sleep last, there's more time to eat, of course. But is your appetite actually increased because of lack of sleep?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, so two things that happen. So if you don't sleep enough, the hormones will be triggered in a way that the drive for food will be increased. So you crave more for food because of your hormones. So that's one explanation. But the second one is just the fact that by spending more hours awake, let's say you sleep four hours per night, you're awake for 20 hours, you just have more time and more opportunities for eating. So I think there's a direct correlation between hours awake and calories consumed. But also that the drive to eat is increased because of your hormones that tells you that you need to eat more. So both explanations have a role to explain why short sleepers gain weight.
Shaun Francis
And when you are sleeping, are you burning calories sleeping? And does more sleep burn more calories?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
No. In fact, you burn more calories when you're awake. So we know that short sleepers, if you look at their metabolism, so what we call the basal metabolic rates or resting metabolic rate, this is the amount of calories you burn over 24 hours. The short sleepers, it's higher, it's a bit higher by about 50-100 calories more per day. But they eat 400 calories more, so even though their energy expenditure overall is a bit higher, their intake is much more higher. So when we talk obesity it's about energy balance, energy in, energy out. So if the energy in it's much higher than energy out, that explains this weight gain. But it's true that if you just look at the net energy expenditure side or metabolism of short sleepers will be a bit higher because they spend more time awake, but their physical activity level may be lower because they are more tired and less likely to move and more likely to sit more.
Shaun Francis
Do you work with patients, obese patients?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, a lot. When we talk to obese patients, I think we want to address the root causes of the problem. So we ask many questions. It's never a one size fits all. There's many causes of the problem. But yes, lack of sleep can explain why they eat too much and why they don't move enough. So we ask those questions. In the context of weight loss programs as well, we know that short sleepers for the same exercise program and the same diet will lose less body fat than good sleepers. And two explanations here: first, we know that the higher ghrelin levels in short sleepers—so ghrelin tends to facilitate the retention of fat. So we keep more of the body fat in the context of weight loss if you don't sleep enough. And it's more difficult for a short sleeper to keep up with a weight loss program because they really crave for food. So they're very hungry. And when you cut calories or diet, they're already hungry by doing that, so hunger plus hunger means very hungry. So most of them they're not compliant, or they just give up with a program after a couple of weeks. And it's more difficult for them to keep up with those exercise programs because they feel more tired and the body just wants to sit more. So I think it's very key to ask questions about sleep.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
And for me, eating too much and not moving enough are more symptoms of lack of sleep than the root cause. So I ask people if they don't sleep enough, that can explain why they eat too much and why they don't move enough, as opposed to seeing excess food intake and lack of exercise as the real drivers of excess weight. It's more of a consequence or a symptom.
Shaun Francis
So how much Sleeping is enough?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So for adults, it's seven to nine hours of sleep per night. So this is the optimal zone for prevention of chronic diseases, for better mental health, and so on and so forth. So seven to nine. You can say actually, seven hours per night. One third of Canadians don't sleep enough, about yeah, 30 percent sleep less than seven hours per night in Canada. Same for teenagers, same for school-aged kids as well. There's no magic number that will apply to everyone. We see big differences between people. Some people may feel well with six hours per night, and some may need that more than nine, may need 10. If I think about athletes like Roger Federer or Tiger Woods, they sleep 12 hours per day.
Shaun Francis
So that's fascinating. So some athletes are sleeping up to 12 hours a day?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, many, many athletes. So not 12 hours per night. So they will have a long night, maybe 9-10 hours and a couple of power naps during the day. So we all heard about power naps, 20 to 30 minutes. You see that a lot for athletes as well. In the past, those exercise programs, you had to train hard, having a good diet, and now they have coaches for their mental health. But I think sleep is an integral part for sports at the Olympics as well. So I think it's very key for athletes to have a good night's sleep before a match or before a competition, because they will have better outcomes according to many, many studies.
Shaun Francis
Do naps count towards that average amount of sleep you need?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. So for example, someone sleeping six hours per night with that 30-minute nap, roughly, you can say six hours plus 30 minutes. So 6.5 hours in your day. So you can add up those naps to your day. Of course, in a perfect world, you want to have your seven hours every night, and then you can add some naps if you want. I would say though, those power naps 20 to 30 minutes max. So sometimes people will sleep for one hour, and then when they wake up, they feel even more tired. So that's not a power nap to me. It should be a short nap and not too long. And the best time for that will be between 2:00 and 3:00 pm, where there's a dip in our system, when we feel a bit more tired. It will be in a perfect world on a weekend day when we don't work, for example. If you can time it, 2:00 to 3:00 pm will be the perfect time for a good power nap.
Shaun Francis
And I know being in the medical business, you know, we send people for sleep studies where they have dozens and dozens of sensors attached to them and they're being filmed, versus the Fitbit or the Oura Ring, for example. Well, they're all measuring quality of sleep. I mean, how important is that quality beyond the duration?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Very important. For me, the two key characteristics when you talk about sleep are yes, one, duration, but quality is very important. Because you can spend 10 hours in your bed, but just getting five or six hours of good quality sleep. So this is not good to me. You want to be efficient when you go to bed. So those hours you're in bed, you want to be sleeping. You don't want to spend 30 minutes or one hour to fall asleep, you don't want to wake up two, three times to go pee. So what we call sleep efficiency in science, which is the same as sleep quality, is the percentage of your night that you're actually asleep. So you want at least 85 percent of your night sleeping. So you should fall asleep within about 15 minutes, max 30 minutes, for sure, and wake up no more than one time per night to go pee, for example. So yeah, you want to preserve that.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
And to have a good sleep efficiency or sleep quality, the key thing for that is to be active every day. So go outside, move. And people that are active, they just have better sleep quality, that people that just have too much mental work, they sit all day, they work with their brain, but they don't vent. So we need a better balance between mental activity and physical activity. What happens now is that people go to bed, and they overthink about the next day. But they didn't have this physical activity to vent and for the body, so when you go to bed, the body needs to feel tired, but now people go to bed and their brain is tired, but not their body. So then that's where it impacts their sleep quality and they don't—they're not very efficient.
Shaun Francis
And what other types of habits will improve that quality of sleep?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So I think you want to remove any screen time at least in the 30 minutes before bed. We know the impact of the blue light coming from our tablet, cell phone and laptops and TVs. So it suppresses the sleep hormone melatonin, so it takes more time to fall asleep and it reduces sleep quality at night. So I would remove any devices from your bedroom. Or at least if you keep your cell phone, put it in a sleeping mode during the night so if you receive a text you don't hear that. No TVs in the bedroom. Moving every day is important. Have a routine before going to bed. So this routine should not include screen time. So have a bath, read a book, listen to music. So you need to wind down before bed. Brush your teeth. So try to keep that routine every day is good. But to me the two key ones is to move everyday, go outside and reduce your screen time in at least the 30 minutes before bed to preserve your sleep quality.
Shaun Francis
Inevitably, like you said when you wake up to pee, for example, but if you're waking up a couple times an evening or during the night, is there tactics to fall back to sleep?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. I think if it takes too much time to fall back asleep, I will say don't stay in your bed. So go to a different room, try to read a book—not on a tablet, but a hard copy book. And then when you feel tired again, go back to your bed. So it should work. But if it becomes chronic, and you always have a hard time to fall asleep and you wake up all the time, so either you may have a sleep disorder, in which case you need to consult a sleep expert to really rule out if it's a sleep disorder or not. And then there are so many sleep hygiene tips you make sure that you follow. So your bedroom should be dark, should be cooler than the rest of the house, should be quiet. All of those things you need to make sure that they're okay. So going through that list of sleep tips or sleep hygiene rules. I think if you respect all of those and you still have a hard time going to sleep and you move every day, you have removed all the gadgets in your bedroom, so then I will say go see a sleep expert, because it could be a sleep disorder. In which case, you need treatment for that. It can be medication or it could be cognitive behavioural therapy. There's many other treatment that you may need.
Shaun Francis
What is the benefit of these various wearables? Like should we be tracking our sleep?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, I think if you like it, do it. I think in research, those gadgets are not research-grade. We're not going to use that for our research. But then for people to track their their sleep, I think what you want to know is roughly do you have good sleep or bad sleep? Is it like a red flag or it's a good sleep? Of course you can.
Shaun Francis
It sounds like if we're not tired during the day and we're getting that seven to nine hours, we don't necessarily need to be worried about the sleep tracker telling me I got X amount of time of REM sleep.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
No, because they're not that precise. Those sleep trackers that you can buy, they don't really know about your sleep stages: REM sleep, non-REM sleep. Because you really need electrodes on your brain to see that. So they just track movement. So if you're moving in your bed, they will say that you're not sleeping. So I think you need to be careful about that. They're better to track overall sleep duration, but also they give a rough snapshot of your sleep quality, but I don't—I would not pay any attention to sleep stages or REM sleep, non-REM sleep in any of those sleep trackers.
Shaun Francis
What about alcohol? How does that affect you?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. So alcohol, it will help you to fall asleep. So this is true if you drink beer or wine or liquor, whatever. So it's true it will help you to fall asleep, but the second part of your night it will disrupt your sleep. You're more hot for the second part of your night, you're going to wake up more. And it will reduce REM sleep, which is rapid eye movement sleep, which is quite important for your mood, for your emotions, for your memory. So this part will be cut a lot in your night with alcohol. So that's why you see that the day after, you're a bit more groggy, your emotions or your mood are impacted. So I think that will impact that a lot. So I think you may fall asleep quicker, but it will be bad overall for your night drinking that. And same with cannabis. It's legal now. So I think you're gonna fall asleep quicker with that. You're going to have the munchies too. But for your sleep, it's probably not the best thing for your brain.
Shaun Francis
What about sleeping aids? I mean, there's the narcotic, and then there's the ones that are over the counter. Where do they factor in?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So some people, yeah, I think people can rely on that sometimes. But I think, to me, it hides something deeper. So people want a quick fix. So they may get sleeping aids because they don't sleep well, as opposed to really trying to move more, reduce their screen times. I think if you go back to the basics, it's much better for your sleep than trying to cope with a sleeping aid. And it may work sometimes, but if you rely on that every night or most days of the week, you have a problem. So I think you need to consult someone to see if you maybe have a sleep problem, or trying to change other things in your life. But if you talk about melatonin, which is over-the-counter sleeping aid, there's no adverse effects of that. People use that with jet lag. For example, if you travel to China or Australia, you just come back to normal quicker. So I think it's pretty safe.
Shaun Francis
You've now touched on jetlag. Let's unpack that a little. First of all, how does that impact us if we are travelling frequently? Are there ways to deal with it?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, that's a good thing now with COVID, we don't do that. But I think for someone travelling a lot—I was travelling a lot before for giving lectures around the world. And, of course, when you change different time zones, that's the worst because, yeah, either you skip hours or you add hours, so it's very difficult. And sometimes when I was going to China, or Australia, it's really the opposite, it's plus 12 or 14 hours. So then it's very difficult to come back to your normal routine. But the body adapts over time. It takes a few days.
Shaun Francis
Is there a best practice if you get off one of those red-eye flights overseas and you've only slept a few hours or, say, four or five hours, potentially? Is there a best practice you would recommend that first day in a new place?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. The first best practice is trying to nap and sleep during that, because I know many of my colleagues who just can't sleep at all on planes, so the adverse effects will be worse on them if you don't sleep at all. But I think best practice is just to be exposed to the sun first, because we know that the sun enters our eyes and it impacts our brains. So our 24-hour cycle is really—the main cue is the sun. So the more you can go outside and be exposed to the sun will be good to reset your clock.
Shaun Francis
But we can also nap that first day.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, if you can nap, of course that would be the best thing. But sometimes people maybe need to go to meetings right away so they just can't nap. But if you have the possibility to nap, that would be the best case scenario, of course.
Shaun Francis
Is that a power nap? Or could you do a couple hours?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
You could do a couple hours, if you didn't sleep well in the plane or at all, I think it's fine to sleep longer now, because you want to compensate for the fact that you didn't really sleep. So you want to get closer to the seven hours in your 24 hours of sleep. So then it's fine to sleep longer in that case.
Shaun Francis
We laughed about this before we talked about jet lag, but COVID has changed obviously, the frequency of jet lag. How else has COVID changed sleeping patterns?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So I think there were a bunch of studies published this year before COVID and after COVID. So I was telling you that about one-third of Canadians were not sleeping enough. So that's pretty much before COVID. And I know that with COVID, a couple of behaviours have been worse. So people are more inactive now, engaged more screen time, we drink more alcohol. There's more stress in our society, in general. But I think with sleep, it's one of the good behaviours that have changed with COVID. And a large segment of the population, people sleep longer now during COVID., and it's mainly explained by the fact that our work schedule is more flexible, we just have more options in our days. So, for example, me, I had to wake up way earlier before because I had to commute to go to work. So I just skip on this almost two hours per day commute time, and I work from home. And I can shower when I want, I can exercise when I want. So I think this flexibility really helped people with their sleep patterns during COVID. There's some people that were sleeping—of course, they still have to go to work, so it didn't impact those people. But for a large amount of the population, I think sleep has improved this year, which is a good thing.
Shaun Francis
We talked about the people that need potentially nine to 10, or the athletes who might even get 12 during the day. Are there people that get four hours of sleep? You know, you hear some leaders and business people bragging about it.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah.
Shaun Francis
Are those true stories?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. I've heard a lot about Donald Trump. He brags about that, that he ...
Shaun Francis
Four hours.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
... he lives on four hours per night. That can explain a lot of things as well.
Shaun Francis
Do you think it affects his personality, the four hours?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Of course. I think it impacts mood. The fact that he reacts quickly on things. Yeah, it's well-known that the adverse effects of sleep on that. And his physical health, too. He's overweight, and he's more likely to die younger because of chronic disease as well. So it explains the adverse effects on physical health, mental health. And I think it doesn't send a good message to the population, because if you say that sleep is for lazy people, it's not good to do that, so then it shows that we should not care about sleep. But at the same time, he was saying that people that exercise, it's stupid to do that, because we only have one battery, and then the more you move the more the battery goes down, so then you're going to die younger. That's what Trump was saying about exercise. So he doesn't care. He doesn't eat well. Doesn't move. And then the only good thing he doesn't drink alcohol, so maybe that's one good behaviour I can give him. But apart from that, he's not a good role model for sleep behaviours, for sure.
Shaun Francis
That's fascinating. Is there a tactic to get through the day, if you had just one of those nights where you had to wake up early? You know, you need seven, but you got six?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. I think that happens to everyone sometimes. And I think if what people do, they drink coffee, they try to do the best they can. We had a baby girl not long—she's two now, but as a new father, you know that they don't sleep much. And then you have to go to work, you have to do your other things. So I think we just adapt. But it's a weird feeling to know that you didn't sleep enough. And I think we all really feel it. And when I say it's a stress factor for the body to gonna sleep enough, our cortisol level, which is the stress hormone is higher. So you just feel—the hormones are more stressed when you don't sleep enough. And I think you just tried to cope the best you can, to try to go outside. Even though you feel tired, try to move as much as you can. And then yeah, we all survive.
Shaun Francis
I know, as a younger man, and I would read—and we talked about President Trump on four hours, but I vividly recall stories many, many years ago how many, many leaders and CEOs would brag about the four hours. And in fact, maybe even Jack Welch, who famously ran General Electric. But there was never any talk about wellness or its impact on wellness. I mean, it sounds like the field has really evolved over the last few decades. Could you talk about that?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's true. So when we talk about sleep, it comes from a branch of medicine. And we know that medicine is really geared towards the treatment of sleep disorders. So when I go to conferences on sleep, the biggest one in the world, in the US and so on, it's really about how do you treat insomnia? How do you treat sleep apnea? There's very, very little about the public health aspect of sleep, or sleep for wellness, having a good night's sleep for overall health. I think in the past 10 years we see that more, mainly because we now have public health guidelines around sleep. We see the benefits for athletes, we see all of those things. But one problem is that it was really from the medical field, and it was really about treatment and not prevention in the first place. So I think that's different compared to the physical activity field when it didn't come from medicine.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So I think there's a lot of studies about being active for health and stuff like that. So I think now it's a good thing. We hear more about the benefits of a good night's sleep. We have campaigns like with Participaction, when they say, move more to sleep better, to poop better, to sex better, all of those things that relates to people a lot. So we talk a lot about sleep now. And we value that more.
Shaun Francis
Can you talk about the new 24-hour movement guidelines, and what's important about them and how does it connect to sleep?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
Yeah. So the 24-hour movement guidelines are Canadian guidelines about physical activity, about sleep, about behaviour. And they were released for adults and older adults this year. So they're brand new. For children and youth, they were released in 2016, and for the early years in 2017. So for the first time in Canada, we have evidence-based public health guidelines around sleep. And the WHO will release their guidelines in two weeks, and I was part of that, the World Health Organization. And what they did, they just copied what we did in Canada. So I think we're world leaders in Canada about those 24-hour guidelines. And if the WHO copied what we did, that means that we did a pretty good job. And they will have 24-hour guidelines too. So I think it's a good thing for the world that we'll just talk more about sleep in the future.
Shaun Francis
The WHO is coming up with their own guidelines on the 24-hour movement? Or are they borrowing Canada's?
Jean-Philippe Chaput
So they had to redo a process, but they really adopted what we did in Canada. But it will be branded as the WHO guidelines. But the actual guideline statements will be very similar to what we did in Canada, except they will apply to the world. So, of course, some terms or aspects will be different because our flavour's more Canadian. But I think the key things of their guidelines for sleep duration and stuff like that, it will not change. So it's the same numbers, but of course, some of the tests will be different and branded as WHO and not Canadian, of course. I'm part of the panel of experts to come up with those guidelines. I had to go to Geneva a couple of times to develop those guidelines, because I'm part of the group.
Shaun Francis
Thank you, Dr. Chaput. It's been a really interesting interview, and we really appreciate your time. And our listeners on Eat Move Think I know will as well. You've addressed a lot of the questions that we have. And I know I'm looking forward to trying to get my seven hours-plus sleep this evening. So thank you. And thanks for everything you're doing in the field and your contribution to public health. God knows we want to stay healthy during the pandemic. So thank you for all your efforts on that front.
Jean-Philippe Chaput
It was a real pleasure. Thank you very much.
Chris Shulgan
That’s it for this episode of Eat Move Think. Fine Dr. Jean-Philippe Chaput on Twitter @drjpchaput. C-H-A-P-U-T. Check out the podcast website for highlights and full episode transcripts at eatmovethinkpodcast.com.
Chris Shulgan
Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella. Editorial direction from Chantel Guertin. Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favourite podcast platform. Follow Shaun on Twitter and Instagram @shauncfrancis—that's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with a new episode examining the latest in health and wellness.