Ep. 36: Wearable Technology with Amber Mac
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Today wearable technology is integral to wellness and the future of precision medicine, with such devices as the Fitbit, the Oura Ring and the just-released Apple Watch Series 6. But which tech is best? For guidance, host Shaun Francis talked to the most tapped-in tech observer out there, Amber Mac, about the little-known wearable that Amber thinks tops everyone else. Plus, the goods on the COVID Alert app and Amber’s recent interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
LINKS AND HIGHLIGHTS
Wearables mentioned in episode 36:
Oura ring, which partnered with the NBA
Fitbit, which is being bought by Alphabet
Other cool stuff:
Watch or listen to Amber’s interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on the COVID Alert app.
Download the app here.
And for more context, check out host Shaun Francis’s interview in episode 20 with James Petrie, the U of Waterloo math Ph.D. who developed the bluetooth exposure notification framework on which the COVID Alert app is based.
Please subscribe and rate us on your favourite podcast platform. Eat Move Think host Shaun Francis is Medcan’s CEO and chair. Follow him on Twitter @shauncfrancis. Connect with him on LinkedIn. And follow him on Instagram @shauncfrancis. Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Executive producer is Chris Shulgan. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella.
Wearable Technology with Amber Mac final web transcript
Christopher Shulgan: Hi, I’m Christopher Shulgan, executive producer of Eat Move Think. Go back some years and the worlds of technology and wellness were at opposite ends of our culture. Technology was hackers eating Cheetos in all-night gaming sessions. Wellness was headband-equipped joggers pounding the pavement. Then came smartphones and wearables like the Garmin, the Fitbit and the Oura Ring.
Christopher Shulgan: Today, wearable technology is integral to wellness and the future of precision medicine. Where is that world going? Should we all go out and buy the Apple Watch Series 6, with its COVID-targeted oxygen saturation capability?
For guidance, Eat Move Think host Shaun Francis talks to the most tapped-in tech observer out there, Amber Mac. In this episode, Amber and Shaun discuss wearables, Amber’s recent interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on the COVID Alert app and the little-known wearable that Amber thinks is better than the latest Apple Watches.
Christopher Shulgan: Here’s Shaun’s conversation with Amber Mac.
Shaun Francis: Hi, Amber, thanks for joining the Eat Move Think podcast. Super happy to have you join us today. There's so much going on with respect to COVID, the pandemic, and also technology and how technology, notwithstanding the pandemic is affecting our healthcare and how we think about our wellness. And I know you are a tech savant, and we're super delighted to dig in a bit and have your thoughts on the sector and where it's going, especially as it relates to our health.
Amber Mac: Absolutely. I am so looking forward to having this conversation because more and more as I cover emerging technology, it's been fascinating over the years how much healthcare has come into the conversation. And I was just listening to a podcast this morning. And they were talking about how one of the biggest opportunities when it comes to emerging tech is within the healthcare space, knowing that so many individuals now have access to data that they've never had before.
Shaun Francis: You know, maybe on that note, and I know we were just chatting about how we both were in San Francisco, maybe around the same time with the internet, the first internet apex. You know, where has technology evolved since then, right? Because I know back then, you know, we didn't have wearables, and it wasn't quite as consumer-friendly as it is now. Can you maybe talk about the journey as you've seen it, in particular how it relates to wellness?
Amber Mac: Absolutely. I think what's been really interesting over the past 20 years, and knowing Shaun, that we were both in the Bay Area during the dot-com era is that I think at the time when we saw emerging technology come into consumers' lives, I think it was really in its infancy in terms of the sophistication of that technology. So there were just so many issues with mainstream adoption of technology. And I think the good news is, within two decades what we've seen is finally we have consumer technology as it relates to healthcare, that is affordable, that is user-friendly, and also ensures that when it comes to data, it protects privacy as well. So it's been, I think, many years of constant iterations with new healthcare tech that will serve the end customer quite well.
Shaun Francis: And when was that first moment? Who was the first mover in this on a massive commercial scale? Was it Fitbit?
Amber Mac: That is a really good question. I do think that Fitbit does deserve quite a bit of credit for the early years of what they created. You know, you started to see people be more conscious about counting simple things such as steps, and they were definitely an early mover in that space. So I think Fitbit is one of those really interesting companies that's helped to pave the way. I would also say, you know, in later years and closer to where we are today in 2020, you of course see companies such as Apple again, really improving upon this idea that wearables are a way that people can have better access to data about their health. And, you know, I was reading an article recently—and I love this line, where they said that data is the new selfie when it comes to new technologies. And I think that's absolutely true. There's a lot of data that we can start to collect and learn about our health and wellness that we finally have at our fingertips.
Shaun Francis: You're right. I mean, Apple is such a predominant market player, right? They have just kept increasing the functionality of their devices. At the beginning, I know it was very rudimentary, and they had an Apple application, I think, to retain your health information, but I don't know if it was well used. But they seemed to continue to improve on that. Have you paid particular attention to what they've done? And what do you think their end game is?
Amber Mac: Well, I think what we've seen with Apple over the past couple of years is this renewed focus when it comes to health wearables. I think this has become, at first it was really something that maybe they did just as a side offering to really being at the forefront. When we see these Apple events that take place, very often they lead with the Apple Watch, most recently, the Series 6. So I think if you look at what Apple has done over time is that they've been able, again, to iterate. And because they have so many people who are comfortable with the Apple ecosystem, it just feels like there's that trust there from consumers. And that's the piece I think that is so critical when we talk about health and technology is, not only do you have to create something spectacular, but you also have to ensure that there is that trust with people using your tech, because we really have come into an era I think where people are a little more skeptical than they were back in the dot-com era about trusting big technology companies.
Shaun Francis: And do you think that trust is there? I mean, is there a hold back of people maybe not willing to share that kind of bio data on their devices because of the trust factor?
Amber Mac: You know, I'll be honest with you, I kind of fall on the other side of this. I actually worry a lot about privacy hysteria. I think we have unfortunately gotten to the point where we're so concerned about privacy that we forget about learning the facts as far as how technology can serve us. And this could be, in the long run, doing a real disservice to the health of individuals if we're so concerned about every little piece of data. I find it—speaking of different apps that we use on a regular basis, I find it kind of ironic that people will yell at me on Facebook about health apps, and they will do so on the biggest social network that collects the most personal information about anyone in the world.
Shaun Francis: So true. Now are you a user of the health apps?
Amber Mac: Well, you know, I'm glad that we're having this conversation, because I have been using a wearable for the past two months called WHOOP, and it's a WHOOP band, W-H-O-O-P, and I absolutely love it. And here's the thing, and I've been thinking a lot about wearables in this space, especially knowing that we were doing this call and having this conversation, I think that as much as Apple is at the forefront of innovation, when it comes to health tech they have a bit of a weakness in their strategy. And in my opinion, that weaknesses is the battery life of the Apple Watch. I think the real killer app or the killer tech in health and wellness has to be a piece of technology that you never take off, because how else are you going to get an accurate representation of someone's health if you know they're taking it off every night to charge it? So what I love about the WHOOP band if people aren't familiar with it—and I have no official relationship with them—but I love the idea you never take it off, and once a week you are able to simply add the little battery pack onto the band and charge it and it doesn't take long at all. And that's just a weekly thing that happens without removing the band in the first place.
Shaun Francis: Does it have a similar functionality as the Apple Watch in terms of what it's measuring?
Amber Mac: I will probably argue that there's even more data in terms of what it's collecting. So you have information about your sleep. I think that's an obvious one that many of these wearables and also apps are able to track. You have information about your strain, that has to do a lot with your performance as far as physical exertion. And what's really interesting about the WHOOP band that I like the most is that essentially it's taking things such as strain and sleep, and every day you get kind of this colour-coded analysis. So you want to be in the green, that means that you are well-rested and you are ready for strain. And you don't want to be in the red. It also was one of the early companies in terms of having things such as your respiratory rate. And, of course, although I'm not a health professional, I know that if you see a large fluctuation in that rate, that could be a sign that you're getting sick, possibly with COVID symptoms. And so they got a lot of attention around allowing people to get access to things such as respiratory rate.
Shaun Francis: Does WHOOP come with a scale as well?
Amber Mac: It might have other add-ons. It's also a bit of a different model that's probably worth talking about, is unlike the Apple Watch that you buy for a few hundred dollars, you actually don't pay for the hardware, so you're not paying for the WHOOP band. But you are, in fact, paying for a subscription to your data. And to be honest with you, I really love this model because I think at the end of the day, the data is what is going to help us and the hardware may change. And whereas I think Apple has focus more on the look of the watch and the different bands. The WHOOP band is really focused on hey, every month through this subscription, we're going to give you an accurate analysis of your health and fitness. But they can release new software features, and that's where that added value happens for $30 a month.
Shaun Francis: Where's Fitbit going? Are they more head-to-head with Apple? I know they've been acquired by Google, or they're attempting to be acquired by Google.
Amber Mac: Yeah. I mean, I think Fitbit still has a role in terms of adoption, because like you said it was one of the the early movers in this space. And I think when you say the brand Fitbit, I do want to believe that a lot of people trust that brand as well. So I think they still do fill a void in terms of wearables that people trust. But I would just argue that it's probably worth paying attention to some of these other movers in this industry. And that's why I had mentioned WHOOP, because I do think at the end of the day, it's all about that advancement of data and what you're able to provide to the end user. And I think Fitbit has, of course, provided value, but at the end of the day I think there's certain innovations where they could do better. And I also think, from a battery life perspective, they are a bit better than the Apple Watch. But you still do have to take the Fitbit off to charge it. And that is a weakness in the whole world of wearables.
Shaun Francis: What about the Oura Ring? Are you familiar with that?
Amber Mac: Yes, absolutely. So I believe, Shaun, if I'm correct, the Oura Ring is the company that did a partnership recently with the NBA.
Shaun Francis: That's right.
Amber Mac: Yeah, they allow you to wear the Oura Ring, which is similar to other wearables in that it collects data. I think the difference with the Oura Ring as far as what I have read, is that it also tells your temperature, it takes your temperature. So it seems as though they have some really great features built into that. I have not tried one. But listen, I am all for innovation in this space. And I think we're going to start to figure out, is it a ring that makes the most sense? Is it a band? Is it something you wear on your bicep? Who knows what this actually looks like? But I do think more than ever, especially during a global pandemic, we're recognizing that wow, you know, we really need to pay more attention to this space.
Shaun Francis: And do you have any insights into the kinds of applications the various tech companies with respect to wellness are focusing on?
Amber Mac: Well, I think in terms of where it's going, I mean, wearables is a good place to start in terms of understanding the innovation. But you can only imagine that within the home, if we think about smart home technology, that there's an opportunity there to also have more data around our health. So I don't want to get too graphic, but I think you'll appreciate this. If you think about toilets as one example, I've even read about smart toilets that were able to analyze anytime you went to the bathroom and have a better sense of your health. I know that's kind of disgusting to talk about, but you can see that's just an example when we think about the home of so many opportunities to be able to, I think, think more about preventative care, right? And that's the thing that I think people have lost along the way is just, instead of waiting necessarily to go to the doctor, how do we prevent some of this disease that is so prominent in our society?
Shaun Francis: Yeah. Well, certainly the technology is heading in that direction, it's just how does it become—are the insights actionable? I think that's the big challenge for healthcare providers.
Amber Mac: Yeah, I think you're right. And also, I think there's a mental health piece of it too that we could probably talk about. And that's the piece that I have noticed more and more while wearing a wearable is that there used to be days where I was really run down, and I would play sort of mind tricks with myself and say, "You know what? I just got to get up and plow through the day." But now that I see the data, and I recognize, like, holy crap, I am really rundown. I should probably take it easy and get some rest, because I only slept for four and a half hours. That starts to, I think, play into how I manage my days better, and maximize those times when I know that I'm rested and can perform better, but also take a break when I need to. And in this this world where it's all about hustle and working insane hours, I think this gives people a daily check on their wellness as well.
Shaun Francis: The flip side of that, and I've read some criticism is that yeah, then you can obsess with those hours of sleep. In other words, you can have anxiety and not even be able to fall asleep, worried about what your sleep tracker might tell you.
Amber Mac: Yeah, that's a good point. So I do actually like some of these bands. This is probably why I don't wear an Apple Watch, to be honest with you, is that it has a screen that's always giving me information and always accessible. What I like about the bands—and I mean, Fitbit falls into this category as does WHOOP is that I have to consciously open the app to look at my data. And I like that idea that it's not sort of always there and always on my wrist. I think that would give me anxiety. I'm old enough to remember the early years of Blackberry, and I used to have my Blackberry in my pocket on vibrate mode. And every two minutes it would go off, and I developed such anxiety around that and had phantom vibrate. So it felt like it was vibrating when it wasn't even in my pocket. So I'm not a fan of having wearables where I have a screen that's always prompting me with information. So I think that could help people from a mental health perspective is considering a wearable that maybe doesn't have a screen on it that you can constantly play with.
Shaun Francis: Yeah, switching gears now to the world of COVID. I know that you've been outspoken on the COVID alert app. I mean, I think first off, you know, we may have been a bit slow off the mark with respect to this. I mean, well, even backing up it's remarkable that we hadn't figured out that an app might be helpful for contact tracing, you know, before the pandemic. But even now, the uptake hasn't really been remarkable. Does that surprise you?
Amber Mac: It doesn't really surprise me, because as someone who used to host a TV show called App Central, I know it takes a lot for people to download an app. And so—especially an app from the federal government. So I'm not surprised we haven't seen more people download it. Last time I looked, I think we're at 4,400,000 Canadians who had downloaded the app. I would just say that the issue we have right now, again, it goes back to trust. And I think what we've seen over the past couple of months, is that there's so much misinformation around how this app works. Just this morning, I was messaged on Twitter by an individual who was listening to a radio station in Halifax, and the host were talking about the app saying that it's useless and it doesn't work because once you were notified that you were positive, and you inputted that into the app, and you were walking around, well you were already breaking quarantine. But that's not how the app works. It's an exposure notification app.
Amber Mac: So essentially, the information it has is retroactive. That's probably the easiest way to explain it. So if you were out to dinner with someone and then 10 days later, they are positive, you would get the notification and that would be retroactive. And that's the way that the app works. So am I surprised more people haven't downloaded? No, because I think you have to have some level of technical expertise to truly understand the way that this app works. And that's just an unfortunate reality of this type of technology.
Shaun Francis: And I guess it also has to work hand in glove with the testing. So, for example, in that example, if it alerts you to having been 15 minutes close proximity with someone in the last several days, I guess we're encouraging you to isolate, but I would assume get yourself tested as well.
Amber Mac: Well, I think at the end of the day, in terms of the way that it does work is you're right, it only really is going to be effective if we know that people can get tested and get results quickly, right? Because it's not like it alerts you if someone had a test, and they're waiting for that test. So that's not possible through the app. So I think when we talk about this app—and I had a chance to chat with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as well as a member of the Advisory Council on COVID Alert, is that this is one tool in a toolkit of things that will keep Canadians safe: wearing masks, washing hands, using the app, and better testing and more efficient testing. So not all those pieces are working in all the provinces and territories right now. I think that's a pretty true statement.
Shaun Francis: Because I don't think all the provinces are using the app. Is that correct?
Amber Mac: Yeah, there are about, I think, eight of them right now, in terms of the provinces using the app. It has not yet rolled out—although it could happen at any time—in Alberta and British Columbia. There is definitely demand for the app in those places. Alberta, as you probably know, had their own app initially, but it does make sense to have an app on a national level. So I've been impressed, I think, in the past few weeks how this app has rolled out in new places like Quebec, where obviously the COVID cases are high, as well as Nova Scotia and other parts of the Maritimes.
Shaun Francis: And is the government doing enough, do you think, to promote it?
Amber Mac: Well, here's the thing. It's been a really interesting experience watching the government promote this app. Because unlike what you would do with a traditional app launch, where you would throw millions and millions of dollars towards promotion, that didn't really happen. And I would have actually liked to have seen a maybe a national campaign just like Bell does, for example, for Bell Let's Talk Day to raise awareness about mental health. Imagine if we could get all of the telcos to work together and one day say, "Hey, this is the COVID alert day where we're going to have spokespeople on all of our radio stations and TV shows and talk about how the app works and answer questions." I think that's what we really need on a national scale. So I've tried to do my little part by promoting it and creating a video, but we I think we need more if we really expect this app to be adopted by even more Canadians.
Shaun Francis: It's using technology that—it's not just Apple, right? Is the Android system also fully capable with it?
Amber Mac: Yes, exactly. So you can download it if you are an iPhone user or an Android user. You can check out the website, because of course it's newer models of those phones that allow that Bluetooth technology to work. So if you do have an older model it may not work, unfortunately. But there are I think 20-plus million Canadians who have smartphones. Arguably, there's a big chunk of them who have newer smartphones. But yes, here's another opportunity for the telcos to say, "Hey, we approve this COVID alert app. It's been praised by every privacy expert. We're going to help you upgrade to a newer phone so you can run this app on the phone." Maybe it's at no cost. I don't think this is ever going to happen. But those are the type of things that I think needed to happen or need to happen.
Shaun Francis: Because that's an interesting stat. So only 20 million Canadians have a smartphone?
Amber Mac: Yeah. I mean, that's a number that I've just seen floating around. I'm not sure how accurate it is. But that kind of does make sense to me. I mean, I think if you look at the number of Canadians, some people may have older phones, some people may not necessarily have cell phones at all. I think it's a reality of a country that is so large and there's so many rural populations. So it's not everybody, let's put it that way. So the app isn't accessible to everybody just due to the nature of the access to smartphones.
Shaun Francis: Right. Yeah, And I think I've heard that for it to be really effective, we almost need 60 percent of the country to be using it.
Amber Mac: I actually heard that as well. And it was interesting that, in my conversation with Prime Minister Trudeau, he actually used a much lower number, if I recall correctly. He was talking sort of 15-20 percent of the population, which I think is encouraging. Like I mentioned, we have over four million people now using it, so we could potentially get to that. Well, we're almost at that number now. But I think that, again, I guess it's a much smaller part of the population than we realized. I think that is good news for this app. And then I've been thinking a lot about this because the truth is, in order for it to be effective, that's kind of a weird term to quantify, because even if it helps one person not expose himself to potentially 100 people, it is in nature effective. So the good news is, it's still gonna work for those four million-plus.
Shaun Francis: Yeah, if we can get testing for them.
Amber Mac: Yes, absolutely. And that's the piece of it that, you know, frightens me the most is just, I'm hearing all of these horror stories in terms of testing and how long it's taking. And even, you know, obviously, I'm not going to restaurants anymore, and maybe even in the past few months, I've only been inside of one restaurant, but even the contact tracing they're doing where they're writing your name on a piece of paper. I mean, I feel a little bit discouraged as far as the testing process in this country, and even the manual contact tracing process in terms of how effective it could be.
Shaun Francis: If you read what the WHO said about contact racing in 2019, they have a playbook for the global pandemic. And in the playbook, they summarized it into one page, and they had a list of, like, what to do and what absolutely not to do. And on the what not to do, they said for a global pandemic, contact tracing does not work.
Amber Mac: Interesting.
Shaun Francis: It's been amazing to me. And it's been one of those things where, you know, back in March, they said masks don't work. And of course now they do work. And then in 2019, they said tracing doesn't work. But then all you hear now is it does work. But I don't think they said it doesn't work because technically it may not be helpful. I think it was based on the fact there's so many people will likely be infected that at a certain point it just collapses and people don't have trust in it anymore. So why even bother? It's just wasting valuable resources.
Amber Mac: Honestly, whether it's the World Health Organization or the federal government, I think what we've learned this year is just a really big lesson in communication, right? I think not everybody is good at communicating things in simple terms. Not everybody is good at communicating things in a way where they leave the communication open to the fact that hey, we don't know everything right now. And I think back to the initial recommendations on masks is one example. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to say, "We encourage you to wear masks. We don't have all of the data, but it can't hurt." I mean, that would have been ...
Shaun Francis: That would have been honest, right?
Amber Mac: Right. Yeah.
Shaun Francis: And people respect honesty.
Amber Mac: Exactly. And that's what I find so strange is that, how can we not get to this point where we have transparency and honesty, especially during a pandemic, and work on communication strategies that are emotional in nature, right? Connect with people's emotions. And we're all human, and we don't know everything. But it's okay to recommend things where we don't think it will hurt them. So a lot of work could have been done, I think, on that front.
Yeah. No, it's been very—you know, on the mask, I was on a webinar with one of the senior professors at Oxford who happens to be Canadian. But he said, you know, look, the evidence on masks admittedly is pretty mixed. That's it. It's a pretty benign intervention. So, you know, why not, at least for the time being? I mean, I thought that's a fair and honest comment. And I agree with that. But we've had such polarization on both sides of it. We just haven't had consistency of messaging.
Amber Mac: Absolutely. And I mean, even if we go back to talking about the COVID alert app, people will say to me, "Well, I'm worried that it's not safe. You know, is it 100 percent safe?" And my first response is, nothing's 100 percent safe. You can't even walk across the street and it's 100 percent safe. So there is always risk to everything that we do. And I think that's a reality of all technology, but it's also reality of getting in our cars in the morning and driving our kids to school. I mean, there are calculated risks. And in the—when it comes to the big picture as far as the COVID alert app, the risks are, are tiny, minuscule. But nothing's 100 percent perfect. I think also, we have to start to speak in language, like you said, that's a little more human and realistic.
Shaun Francis: And one wonders with the COVID app, I mean, even our own country has problems getting it into different provinces. You know, wouldn't it be wonderful if there was an app that you could use globally? Because the technology is global, but each country is doing its own app. But it'd be great if you could travel globally on the same app, right? Because at some point, we do have to open our borders.
Amber Mac: Absolutely. And also for people to recognize that some countries that are using apps in terms of this fight against COVID-19, many of those countries have GPS built into those apps. So they're essentially tracking you wherever you go. And I mean, I think that's the complication of this right now on a global scale, is I don't think you'll ever get any two countries to agree on what method is the right method, but I do actually think that Canada has taken an approach that is the least intrusive, so that should be good news for Canadians.
Shaun Francis: Yeah. In fact, I think some of the technology came—some of the early research came out of Waterloo.
Amber Mac: Oh, very cool!
Shaun Francis: Yeah, we interviewed on this show one of the early researchers who I think, you know, to what you study, was connected vis-a-vis social media—might have been Twitter—on, you know, what can they do with respect to creating an app. They connected vis-a-vis social media and did a white paper up on how to use Bluetooth technology.
Amber Mac: Amazing.
Shaun Francis: Which I think became the premise for what then the major players like Google and Apple started to graph with respect to a real technology.
Amber Mac: Very cool. Yeah. And I think also it from a Canadian perspective, the COVID alert app has won praise from many privacy experts around the world. I don't know if this is really nerdy, but if anyone is familiar with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the EFF, but they're very critical in terms of privacy when it comes to big technology companies. And they have written about exposure notification apps like COVID Alert and actually given them the thumbs up. So we know again, it's a technology that could help us in this fight. But I think you're exactly right, we kind of need just a bigger campaign to actually get this on more people's phones.
Shaun Francis: Let me switch gears. Just if someone wants to engage technology more effectively from a wellness and health perspective, what would be your top three recommendations?
Amber Mac: So specifically, if someone wants to convey how technology works, is that sort of along the lines of what you're talking about?
Shaun Francis: Yeah. What can they do to use technology more effectively from from a wellness perspective?
Amber Mac: Well, I think at the end of the day, it's understanding like anything, what your problems are, or where you may have issues in your life, right? So it may be that you are stressed and you need to pursue meditation apps like Headspace and Calm. Maybe you want to be more physically active, and then you have to think about things such as activity trackers. And this probably is especially true during the pandemic, where people are just less physically active than they were before. Myself included, and it's been a real struggle on that front. And I think identify places that it can help you. And not every solution is going to be right for every person. So that's also a piece that you need to remember. And of course, price point. What's going to work for you in your life? And how much data do you actually need? You know, it's probably okay if my dad just has a Fitbit and can track his walking and wants to do 10,000 steps a day. He maybe doesn't need more data than that.
Shaun Francis: Yeah, absolutely. So Amber, thank you very much for your insights today on where technology is and where it might be going and how it impacts our wellness. And we should all download the COVID alert app so that we can get more users on it in Canada, that's for sure.
Amber Mac: Absolutely. Well listen, thank you so much for inviting me to join you on your podcast. And I will say as a full disclaimer: Everything I said may change in the coming days because that's how the world works.
Shaun Francis: Absolutely.
Amber Mac: Thanks so much.
Christopher Shulgan: That’s it for this episode of Eat Move Think. Find Amber Mac’s interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on her website at ambermac.com, and learn about her numerous different podcasts and video shows by following her on Twitter @ambermac.
Christopher Shulgan: Check out the podcast website for highlights and full episode transcripts at eatmovethinkpodcast.com. Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella and editorial direction from Chantel Guertin. Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favourite podcast platform. Follow Shaun on Twitter and Instagram @shauncfrancis—that's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with a new episode examining the latest in health and wellness.
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