Ep. 34: Food Professor Sylvain Charlebois with Leslie Beck
Listen, Rate & Subscribe
The pandemic is spurring positive lifestyle changes — such as the transition away from restaurant eating, and toward home cooking. In this episode, guest host Leslie Beck, Medcan’s director of food and nutrition, interviews Prof. Sylvain Charlebois, an expert in food trends and eating patterns. Based on surveys Charlebois has conducted at the Agri-Food Analytics Lab at Dalhousie University, the so-called “Food Professor” argues that the pandemic has triggered long-term changes in the way that people consume, prepare and procure their food. He also discusses his forthcoming book about poutine—and where the best plate of cheese curds and fries are found.
LINKS AND HIGHLIGHTS
Dr. Charlebois is on Twitter @foodprofessor. Leslie Beck tweets @LeslieBeckRD.
At Dalhousie University, Dr. Charlebois runs the Agri-Food Analytics Lab that assesses consumer behaviour as it pertains to food. That’s here.
Dr. Charlebois’ bio: Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Scientific Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. He is one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability. He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles and his research has been featured in The Economist, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere.
Please subscribe and rate us on your favourite podcast platform. Eat Move Think host Shaun Francis is Medcan’s CEO and chair. Follow him on Twitter @shauncfrancis. Connect with him on LinkedIn. And follow him on Instagram @shauncfrancis. Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Executive producer is Chris Shulgan. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella.
Food for Thought with “Food Professor” Sylvain Charlebois final web transcript
CHRISTOPHER SHULGAN
Hi. Christopher Shulgan here, executive producer of Eat Move Think. Virtually no one else in Canada has as accurate a sense of what and how people eat than Dr. Sylvain Charlebois, the so-called Food Professor, the director of the Agri-Food Analytics Lab at Dalhousie University, who has written for everyone from the Globe and Mail to the Wall Street Journal about his research based on surveys of the nation’s eating patterns. The pandemic, says Dr. Charlebois, has inspired a generational shift away from eating in restaurants and toward home cooking, gardening for food, and preserving with pickling and canning. In this podcast episode, Medcan Director of Food and Nutrition Leslie Beck is in conversation with Sylvain Charlebois about the implications of this transition on our overall wellness. Here’s that interview.
LESLIE BECK
So first of all Dr. Charlebois, thank you so much for joining me today. I know you have a super busy schedule. I really, really appreciate the time you're taking to share your insights with us. Before we delve into the way in which COVID-19 has really changed our eating patterns and what those implications are, tell me a little bit about you. So how would you describe your job to somebody who is not in the field?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
First of all, thank you very much for inviting me. I actually read your material as well quite often. I think I read all of it in the Globe and elsewhere. I would say the one sentence I would use to describe what we do, what I do and our team, because we have 22 people working in the lab, the Agri-Food Analytics lab at Dalhousie University, we try to understand the future of food, essentially, where things are going. And that is why COVID has brought a lot of work to us. Because a lot of people have been asking the same question: What's going to happen? What's going to happen to our food supplies? What's going to happen to trends that we're seeing in the marketplace? So we've been working with governments, the private sector. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. And it's the same question all the time: What is going to happen? And that's what we try to answer.
LESLIE BECK
Okay, so let's talk about how COVID has changed grocery shopping for Canadians. Early in the pandemic, your research revealed that many Canadians were uncomfortable with shopping in a grocery store; they were anxious. I certainly was. I remember, you know, middle of March going—for the first time going to a grocery shop and just being—well first of all, shell-shocked that the shelves were empty of everything, I couldn't even buy dish soap. But one reason people were anxious you've mentioned is for fear of COVID contamination of food. So people over-bought groceries, a lot of people turned to online food shopping. And in fact, I recently read that 61 percent of Canadians are buying more food per grocery trip than usual. So talk to me about the trends your research uncovered around grocery shopping early on in the pandemic?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah. Well, I know that you've been following the COVID situation quite closely as well. And I'm sure you would agree with me in saying that there was a different narrative every single week. It was—something new was going on. But at the very beginning, I do remember back in March and April, most people actually walked into their grocery store without knowing really when they would ever go back. And so there was this—they probably stockpiled as a result of that. And of course, there was this huge tsunami that we saw from food service to food retail, all restaurants were closed overnight. And that's a lot of business, that's a lot of meals not being served anymore, $95-billion. And so retail had to absorb that shock too. That's not going to happen again, but at the time, it was really, really huge, it was significant. And so we've gone through that. And then, of course, we start to see a marketplace settle down a little bit. And then we start to see consumers walk away from the centre of the store, the non-perishables. The top two food products that sold in Canada in March were peanut butter and mac and cheese.
LESLIE BECK
Was it? Yeah.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
But as we went through the pandemic, people are starting to get acquainted again with their kitchen. And so they started to buy fresh again, produce, meat products. And so six, seven months into the pandemic, we actually do believe that the consumer will behave very differently and more rationally.
LESLIE BECK
Some of the things you've talked about are very positive things, and things that I've seen with my clients where they're—when they used to do a lot of take-out or go to restaurants, they're now cooking at home. Do you have a sense of whether people will continue some of these positive habits, like cooking with fresh ingredients, eating at home, eating as a family, that kind of thing?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
It's an interesting question. I think there is going to be some sort of legacy, some sort of legacy left by COVID. In fact, in weeks to come we'll be publishing—we'll be releasing a new study on home gardening. So we did look at cooking. So processing your own food at home, because I'm a food distribution person. Unlike a nutritionist or a dietitian, I look at cooking as processing. And I look at gardening as vertical integration. That's how—I'm an economist, so I really look at things a little bit differently. But gardening to me is a very interesting concept. Because all of a sudden, you are seeing more and more people wanting to take ownership of their supply chain. They want to produce their own food and process that food as well. Leslie, you wouldn't believe the number of Canadians that have had decided to garden for the first time this year. I'm not going to tell you exactly the percentage, but it's huge. Huge!
LESLIE BECK
Well, no wonder I couldn't get the flowers I wanted at the nursery this summer.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Exactly. And now, right now as we speak, there's a shortage of mason jars, because people are preserving their food and canning as well. So I actually do think that what we went through as a community over the last six, seven months, is profound. And I do believe that we are going to be seeing the creation of a COVID generation, a generation that will actually see food very, very differently.
LESLIE BECK
That's interesting. That's very interesting. Let's go back a little bit to—and I mean, I haven't heard people doing this, that doesn't mean they're not, but early on when people were throwing out food because they felt it might be contaminated with the virus. That's not rational, though, is it? I mean, to throw out food because you think it might be contaminated?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
No. 14 percent of Canadians have actually reported to us that they did that at least once during the pandemic. That's a lot of waste. And, of course, the science is not there at all. If you look at the documentation that was generated by the Center for Disease Control in Washington, and also our own CFIA here in Ottawa, they would say you shouldn't be doing that. But earlier on, we did hear things like clean your groceries when you get home in the kitchen sink. And now we're hearing from China that they're issuing embargoes against importers of food because they believe that some of the food is contaminated. Now it is, I think, propaganda. But still, because we are in an era of anxiety and fear, through social media, people will believe what they want to believe. And so people are doubtful. They don't necessarily trust some officials, public officials, so they'll actually rely on the information that they have, and it leads to irrational behaviour. But there's no basis for throwing food, perfectly good food away, just because you think—it's a virus, it's not a pathogen. It's not salmonella. It doesn't survive on surfaces or on food.
LESLIE BECK
Okay. So we talked about the over-buying people early on in the grocery store being really careful about the foods they chose. So what are some of the, I guess, the short-term and the long-term implications of that, particularly with respect to food waste, I guess. Let's have a conversation around that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Well, I know you write a lot about this. I would say earlier on, because of the irrationality, because of some of the behaviour we've seen, it did generate more waste. We did publish a report in August about this, we actually suspect that the average household generated 13.5 percent more food waste in the first four months of the pandemic. That's a lot of food. That's worth about $400 of food per household.
LESLIE BECK
Wow. And is that just because people bought too much, so they didn't use it?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
They bought too much for a variety of reasons. But that's the main reason why we wasted a lot. But things have changed a little bit, because when we go to the grocery store, we have become better inventory managers. We're more aware of what's in our fridge because we spend more time at home, obviously.
LESLIE BECK
Right.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
We know what's in our cupboard, we know what's in our freezer. We show up at the grocery store with a strategy, with a list. By the way, Leslie, for the first time in 15 years, the average Canadian will go to the grocery store no more than once a week. And before COVID, it was almost twice a week. And if you go twice a week or more, you will likely buy things you don't need.
LESLIE BECK
Right.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
And that's happening less.
LESLIE BECK
That's interesting. That's a positive outcome then.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Absolutely. Absolutely.
LESLIE BECK
We're also seeing food prices increase. Talk to me a little bit about that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
That's not great news, unfortunately, especially for consumers with less means. Food affordability is going to be an issue. In fact, during my meeting today with Food Banks Canada, I made it quite clear that based on our models—we do publish every year Canada's food price report with the University of Guelph, the University of Saskatchewan and UBC in Vancouver—our prediction for 2020 is a +4 percent across the board. That's basically what's happening. What we didn't expect though, is a very, very low inflation rate, almost at zero, which means that when you walk into a grocery store, you will notice higher food prices, because everything else is is just not moving.
LESLIE BECK
Right.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
So that's the problem. And COVID will likely make that phenomena continue over the next two, perhaps even three years. Costs have gone up. Most companies have been affected by COVID. And to manage a grocery store alone is costing more money. Whether there's hero pay or not, it's costing more money. And so we are expecting, for example, fewer skews per stores, fewer choices, fewer brands. We're expecting a lot of stores to be converted into discount stores or pick stores to support e-commerce. The amount of sales online is going to triple this year. Triple. Whereas six months ago before COVID, many Canadians would not dare think about someone they didn't know to pick their oranges or tomatoes. Now, like, a lot of people are doing it. And the other thing that is going to happen probably is that we're going to be seeing store closures. We do believe that the Canadian market right now is over-stored.
LESLIE BECK
I've had many clients tell me over the past seven months or so that they're now more than ever—or people have turned to them for the first time—relying on fresh meal kits delivered to their door like Hello Fresh, or Good Food, those types of things as a way to avoid going to the grocery store. And obviously, they're convenient for people as well. Do you happen to know any of those stats? I mean, have you seen numbers where sales in these meal kits has increased during COVID?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah. We had stats on meal kits but before COVID, which means that the data that we have is useless. Because things have changed so much. But here's the thing, Leslie, I must say COVID has completely democratized the entire supply chain. Everyone has access to the consumer now because of e-commerce. And not just that, I mean, you are seeing a lot of pivoting going on. But you're also seeing this blurring line between service and retail completely disappear. Actually, you know, COVID just blew up that line. There's no line anymore. Loblaws called recently with PC Chef. It was very interesting. So you talked about meal kits. PC Chef, Loblaws is now selling meal kits to its clients, to its customers. They would come from restaurants, established restaurants in Toronto, Burgers Priest and other well-known restaurants, you can actually order through Loblaws a burger you can make at home in your own home that would come from Burger Priest. Can you imagine?
LESLIE BECK
Wow. I did not know that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
So food brokerage is going to become more and more predominant as a result of COVID, I think. You're going to see many of these connections happen. And the deal will be about convenience, meal kits, empowering the consumer to prepare to cook at home, which will require less time because we're going back to some sort of normalcy, so we'll need to buy some time here.
LESLIE BECK
Right. You know, one of the things I mean, we talked a little bit about waste. One thing we haven't talked about that you had written about is the plastics, the plastic waste that was from manufacturers, grocery stores. Tell me a little bit about that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah, it's quite problematic right now. Obviously, the use of plastics has gone up as a result of COVID. People feel secure about this one material because it's been in our lives forever. We are addicted to plastics, let's face it. And there's a reason why we're addicted to plastic: It keeps food safe, fresh for a longer period of time, and it will save us some money as well. So to replace plastics is not easy to do. And COVID came in too quickly and the industry was not ready. And that's why plastics came back. If you order online and you get your food delivered, what you will see is styrofoam and plastics. So the use has gone way up. Unfortunately, some provinces are now delaying their bans and limitations of the use of plastics. Nova Scotia is one of them. At the federal level, we believe it may be delayed as well. There hasn't been an announcement yet, but you can see that really people are concerned. In fact, in our report, we noticed that 52 percent of Canadians, you know, they do recognize the problem of plastics, but they do want governments and industry to wait until we're done with this pandemic before implementing new bans and restrictions on plastics. So the majority.
LESLIE BECK
I see. Okay. So let's shift back to the positive impacts. I mean, we've talked about cooking at home more, more people are home baking. You wrote about this and you mentioned it earlier that COVID is empowering people to take control of their own supply chain. Talk a little bit more about that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
So essentially, we're spending more time in the kitchen. That is a big one. Before COVID, 38 percent of our money was spent on food process and consumed outside the home. The first few weeks of the pandemic, the 38 percent went down to barely 9 percent on average. So it was 91 retail, 9 percent service. Now we're back up to about 25-75. We're not going to go back to 38-62 anytime soon, let me tell you. And that's empowering because well, one, you're more aware of what you're actually going to be eating, really. And two—and we did talk about gardening earlier, so you would actually know where your food is coming from, and you're curious to know where your food is coming from. And also—and this is one part I don't think we talk enough about, it's the financial part of processing your own food at home. You are saving money even though food prices are going up. We actually believe that the average household in Canada is spending less on food, because you see, when you go to the restaurant, to get the same amount of food that you would eat at home, you have to spend 40 percent more for the same volume of food.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
So you're saving. If you're staying home, you're saving. And with the economy and how things are going right now, people will need that extra space in their budget. And so I actually think there's going to be a hook there. The other thing that we haven't talked about that is going to be quite impactful is this whole issue of telecommuting and working from home. If you work from home, your relationship with food absolutely changes; you're closer to the kitchen, you're closer to your cupboard, you're closer to everything, so it's much easier for you to think about or not think about that grab and go, or that dinner party, or that lunch meeting with colleagues and things like that. So that would actually change. And in our report on telecommuting in August, 23 percent of employers are actually thinking of allowing their staff to work from home after the pandemic. 23 percent. That's a lot.
LESLIE BECK
It is a lot. And what you're just talking about brings me to, you know, when you're at home, working from home, and you're cooking more, you published a paper last year, late last year, I believe it was in December, regarding sort of the traditional three meals a day seemed to be sort of a dying tradition among Canadians, you know, in terms of the whole rise in snacking and erosion of regular meals. And certainly that has implications from a public health perspective depending on what people are snacking on, and I can only imagine that a lot of it is ultra-processed food. However, so what you've just kind of talked about is perhaps that research—maybe that's changed now. People are eating three meals at home, as opposed to grazing and snacking during the day and grabbing that breakfast sandwich at lunch or the afternoon snack.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
It is quite possible, Leslie. I mean, I must say when you go back, say, two years, snacking was a big thing. I mean, snacking was how CPG companies were making money, really. It wasn't just about dominating breakfast, lunch or dinner, it's the in-betweens. They wanted people to eat six times a day, absolutely. And they wanted that attention. They wanted that space as much as possible. I mean, to a certain extent, that game may have changed last year. I mean, I did write about the end of the three-meal institution. But I do question that because of COVID. I don't know. It's an interesting thought, and perhaps there could be a renaissance of some sort of the three-meal institution. Who knows? Is that desirable? I don't know. I must say that right now, I think a lot of people are struggling to strike a balance in their lives. My family is as well. I mean, it's a new normal; people are home. I'm working from home. I'm not moving as much. We have a gym at home, but we're not walking from one meeting to another. Today, I went from Vancouver to Toronto to Ottawa to Halifax without leaving my chair.
LESLIE BECK
No, I know. And that's one thing about working from home, or even when I'm in my office and working virtually with clients, you're sitting. And it takes a toll.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Absolutely.
LESLIE BECK
At seven months in, for sure you really feel it. So that movement, I really miss that daily movement. It's different than going to the gym or working out.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
LESLIE BECK
So let's come back a little bit. I guess I want to give some takeaways to people out there, to consumers. You know, I think one thing we really hit on was food waste, packaging waste. Can you give some tips for consumers to what should people be doing at home to reduce food waste?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Well, in terms of food waste, I think we're collectively going in the right direction. We're more disciplined, we're more focused, for sure. My concern, of course, is access. As I told you earlier, I think the market is over-stored. And of course, Sobeys and Loblaws will never say that the market is over-stored, because it means loss of jobs and things like that. And so I'm very concerned about access, really. And so as a consumer, you want to know what your options are, virtually and physically. There are two games right now going on. Virtually, you'd be shocked by the number of new options you have. Because I'm actually next to the ocean here, and because of COVID, we went to the grocery store, my wife and I, and we realized that there was no more fish and seafood, but we actually ended up on the internet and found three suppliers who deliver to our homes at a decent price. And it comes from the sea. And so as a consumer, you want to be aware of all the channels you have access to. Of course online, it's a little bit more difficult to save money, but I actually do think that you need to be aware that the landscape, the distribution landscape has completely changed in seven months.
LESLIE BECK
Yeah, I bet. Wow. You say that people actually spend 40 percent more when they eat out versus eating at home.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
They have to spend 40 percent more to get the same amount of food if they were to eat at home. That's the difference. That's the ratio. It's a 1.4 ratio, and that ratio, it costs people money. And embedded in that ratio is service, tips, the $50 bottle of wine. I mean, there's a lot of additions that don't necessarily—you don't have to cover when you buy food to be cooked at home. And that's the difference. And people don't realize it, but it does add up over time.
LESLIE BECK
I've been told you writing your sixth book, and it's about poutine of all things.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Geez, you know everything.
LESLIE BECK
I do my homework. So—and I believe this is going to be your first non-academic book. Tell us a little bit about that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah, that was interesting. So it was supposed to be released by now, but it was delayed because of COVID. And so it's going to be released in March of 2021 in both French and English. And I mean, I actually am originally from Farnham, Quebec, and I'm from the region where poutine was actually invented. And in Quebec, there is this dispute as to who actually invented poutine, because nothing was documented in 1950s, really. And so I got into this journey, I got into this journey of discovery to know, to understand who invented poutine? And what was the sequence of events? So I go through that in the book, but I also go on a global poutine pilgrimage.
LESLIE BECK
Wow, that's so cool.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah, because I call—the name of the book is Poutine Nation. And I wanted to make a parallel between pizza from Napoli, Italy, and poutine. Napoli gave us pizza back in 1905, and we now eat pizza basically pretty much all over the world. And I wanted to know if I could eat poutine all over the world. So I actually ended up eating poutine in obviously Toronto, Vancouver, Cleveland, New Orleans, Paris, Shanghai, and Brisbane, Australia, on the other side of the world. And every time—so the test was very simple. I went to the lobby of the hotel and I said, "Where can I get poutine?" Every single time, Leslie, I didn't have to explain what poutine was.
LESLIE BECK
Wow. There you go.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah. I was impressed. I was impressed.
LESLIE BECK
What a pilgrimage. That's great. Was that surprising to you?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
It was, absolutely. And of course, I wanted to understand why was poutine so successful? I mean, poutine is—you're a dietitian, you must think it's gross.
LESLIE BECK
Just a bit.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yeah, but it's just not recommendable. You can't recommend someone to eat poutine. It's disgusting. And—but it worked. And it's global now. And I, as an academic, I just wanted to understand why poutine worked while other dishes that we would have invented in Canada haven't really been globalized as much as poutine.
LESLIE BECK
And why do you think poutine worked?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
I think there was a sequence of events. First of all, the intensity of the meal, it's a simple meal. You got cheese, gravy and fries. You can find cheese, gravy and fries everywhere around the world, especially potatoes. So that's universal. Secondly, you saw an endorsement coming from Burger King and McDonald's in Quebec in the 1980s. And that led to connections, of course, outside Quebec into Toronto and elsewhere. And poutine is an easy word to pronounce. Even Anglophones can pronounce it. And it's fun. It's associated with fun. And frankly, most people who eat poutine for the first time aren't necessarily sober. So they have a poutine when they're having a great time, when they're having fun. And that's probably why poutine has been so successful.
LESLIE BECK
And where did poutine taste the best?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Well, that's another chapter in my book, because I think your taste for poutine is heavily influenced by the first one you have. And so the first one I had was in Farnham, obviously. And I want my cheese at the bottom, not at the top. So it melts and it's the prize at the end you get.
LESLIE BECK
Oh, that makes sense.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
And that's the trick. Yeah, absolutely. And most places, they'll put that cheese on top, which is really not great. The best is, of course, having cheese on top and at the bottom. The worst poutine by far was in Cleveland. They actually gave me a poutine with—get this—powdered Parmesan cheese.
LESLIE BECK
Oh, what a disappointment.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
Yes. And I took a picture. Well, the owner of the place actually took a picture of myself with this poutine, and I asked him, do people actually like this poutine? And he told me people line up in Cleveland at night to get this poutine. And they love it.
LESLIE BECK
Yeah, there you go. So when is the book coming out?
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
March, 2021.
LESLIE BECK
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Charlebois. I really, really enjoyed speaking with you today. And I really appreciate your time. I know you're busy. So thank you again.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS
My pleasure. And hopefully one day, Leslie, we’ll have poutine together.
LESLIE BECK:
Yes! I'll look forward to that.
SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS:
All right.
CHRIS
That’s a wrap for this episode of Eat Move Think. Sylvain Charlebois is on Twitter @foodprofessor, and he also has a great podcast which is called The Food Professor. Leslie Beck is on Twitter @LeslieBeckRD.
CHRIS
Check out the podcast website for highlights and full episode transcripts at eatmovethinkpodcast.com. Eat Move Think is produced by Ghost Bureau. Senior producer is Russell Gragg. Social media support from Emily Mannella.
CHRIS
Remember to rate and subscribe to Eat Move Think on your favourite podcast platform. Follow Shaun on Twitter and Instagram @shauncfrancis—that's Shaun with a U—and Medcan @medcanlivewell. We'll be back soon with a new episode examining the latest in health and wellness.